Your favorite lightsaber duel from the Star Wars saga

[shaylon]

I loved them all. I chose Obi-Wan vs. Darth Vader in ROTS because it was a fitting close to the series and also because it really was the only battle where all the participants were athletic enough to pull it off. Both of those guys were in decent shape whereas most of the other battles pitted an old man against either another old man or an inexperienced fighter.

By the way the one I liked the least would be Count Dooku vs. Anakin. That was terrible. They stayed up close on their faces for the whole fight, they weren't showing any action at all.

-Shay

 

[Wycen]

Hands down Luke vs. Vader in Return of the Jedi. It might not have all the fancy acrobatic crap, but it demonstrates Force powers and is the only fight where real emotion is conveyed. I love the final 6 strokes against Vader.

 

[delericho]

I voted for Obi-wan vs Vader in Episode IV, simply because it was the first I saw, although all of the original trilogy film duels were good.

My problem with the duels in the prequels is that they just don't match. You can argue that in the classics we're seeing old men, cyborgs and untrained boys fighting, but the fighting styles are different, not just faster. Although the three-way fight in Phantom Menace, and the climactic duel in Revenge of the Sith are both very impressive visually.

Oh, and both Yoda and Palpatine were cooler before they picked up a lightsaber.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

My problem with the duels in the prequels is that they just don't match. You can argue that in the classics we're seeing old men, cyborgs and untrained boys fighting, but the fighting styles are different, not just faster.

Well, in the Prequels we see MORE people dueling. In the originals, its just three people. Obi-Wan(old man), Vader(cyborg, somewhat slower but can pack a punch), and Luke(not trained like the Old Republic Jedi). So yes, they don't match...but it makes sense. Anakin no longer relies on his speed as he did as a Jedi, but instead on raw power and strength. Luke is just...the oddity. He didn't have formal training, so developed his own style, in a sense.

 

[delericho]

Well, in the Prequels we see MORE people dueling. In the originals, its just three people. Obi-Wan(old man), Vader(cyborg, somewhat slower but can pack a punch), and Luke(not trained like the Old Republic Jedi). So yes, they don't match...but it makes sense. Anakin no longer relies on his speed as he did as a Jedi, but instead on raw power and strength. Luke is just...the oddity. He didn't have formal training, so developed his own style, in a sense.

I would accept that, but for three things:

1) During the Jedi Purge, Vader would have to fight lots of Jedi knights. Assuming he applies the same code of honour as the Jedi and Sith seem to adhere to in the prequels (that is, you fight blade-to-blade without interference), and assuming what we see in RotJ is the best he can do, it would seem that there should be several Jedi who could take him out. Darth Maul is just so much faster.

2) Obi-wan is an old man, yes, but Dooku is quite a bit older (he trained Qui-Gon after all). If the characters are the same age as the actors who portray them, we're talking late 70's vs mid 60's. Of course, the circumstances of their lives are very different but, still... I don't buy it.

The big one:

3) In RotJ, once Vader realises the Luke is matching him trick for trick, I would expect him to pull out something that Luke hasn't seen to throw at him. A skilled swordsman would do precisely that - put your opponent off-guard. And especially at the end of the fight, where Luke is attacking in a rage, there should be something Vader can do. I refuse to believe that the Jedi academy didn't teach students how to counter precisely that sort of attack.

Truth be told, the fighting styles aren't that big of an issue for me. I have a long list of things I don't like about the prequels, ranging from the big (anything that's supposed to be funny, anything that's supposed to be romantic) to the trivial. I have an even longer list of things I would have done differently. Lightsaber combat is some way down my list. But, despite this, I can enjoy the prequels for that they are (especially RotS). I rather wish George had included a score-only track on the DVDs, though .

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

1) During the Jedi Purge, Vader would have to fight lots of Jedi knights. Assuming he applies the same code of honour as the Jedi and Sith seem to adhere to in the prequels (that is, you fight blade-to-blade without interference), and assuming what we see in RotJ is the best he can do, it would seem that there should be several Jedi who could take him out. Darth Maul is just so much faster.

Well, if you listen to the EU at all, we'll find out soon. A book about Vader in the Purge will be out soon. But, considering the brief things we saw of the start of the Purge at the Jedi Temple, there is no honour among Sith. By the time of the movies, Vader was older, too, and arguably out of practice compared to previously.

There's also the point that being "More Maching than Man" actually hindered his ability to use the Force(i.e. improve speed and reflexes) and caused Vader to be much less powerful than he had been as Anakin. The Vader we see fighting Obi-Wan on Mustafar is the strongest he ever was, and then only because the Dark Side was feeding him.

2) Obi-wan is an old man, yes, but Dooku is quite a bit older (he trained Qui-Gon after all). If the characters are the same age as the actors who portray them, we're talking late 70's vs mid 60's. Of course, the circumstances of their lives are very different but, still... I don't buy it.

Two things on this one, though. The first being that Dooku, having fallen to the Dark Side, was using its power to strengthen his body and reflexes. It made him faster, stronger, etc, for the short periods of time we saw him for. It wouldn't have worked forever, of course.

Not only that, but also Dooku was involved in a war in his old age. He was constantly fighting and practicing. Obi-Wan, though, sat on Tatooine and hid as best he could while watching over Luke. He didn't keep up his skills and, by the time he did fight on the Death Star, wasn't even fighting to win. He was simply fighting to buy the other's time.

3) In RotJ, once Vader realises the Luke is matching him trick for trick, I would expect him to pull out something that Luke hasn't seen to throw at him. A skilled swordsman would do precisely that - put your opponent off-guard. And especially at the end of the fight, where Luke is attacking in a rage, there should be something Vader can do. I refuse to believe that the Jedi academy didn't teach students how to counter precisely that sort of attack.

By that time in RotJ, though, Vader is on the edge of redemption. Not only is Luke's rage making him stronger and faster(again, the Dark Side feeding him), but Vader is becoming less and less confident in his wish to actually kill his own son. And Vader also discovers right then that he's also got a daughter...that can't exactly help his state of mind, either. That, and there is probably an element of shock and surprise at how suddenly and violently Luke attacks in defense of the idea of Leia falling.

I rather wish George had included a score-only track on the DVDs, though .

Buy the soundtracks.

 

[delericho]

Well, if you listen to the EU at all, we'll find out soon. A book about Vader in the Purge will be out soon.

Could be cool, depending on who writes it. Star Wars novels tend to be a bit hit and miss.

There's also the point that being "More Maching than Man" actually hindered his ability to use the Force(i.e. improve speed and reflexes) and caused Vader to be much less powerful than he had been as Anakin. The Vader we see fighting Obi-Wan on Mustafar is the strongest he ever was, and then only because the Dark Side was feeding him.

Um, where did you get this from? It's never mentioned in the movies that cybernetics affects the ability to use the Force. I mean, it's a cool theory and all, but I'm not aware of anything to actually support it.

Two things on this one, though. The first being that Dooku, having fallen to the Dark Side, was using its power to strengthen his body and reflexes. It made him faster, stronger, etc, for the short periods of time we saw him for. It wouldn't have worked forever, of course.

Sure, I'll buy that. Well, the part about the war, anyway.

Not only that, but also Dooku was involved in a war in his old age. He was constantly fighting and practicing. Obi-Wan, though, sat on Tatooine and hid as best he could while watching over Luke. He didn't keep up his skills and, by the time he did fight on the Death Star, wasn't even fighting to win. He was simply fighting to buy the other's time.

Hmm. I'm torn on this one. If I were the last of the Jedi (bar one), and charged with guarding the last hope of the galaxy for freedom (bar one), knowing that there's a real chance that the enemy could at any time tumble to the great secret and send a death squad to end matters, I might be inclined to keep my skills as sharp as humanly possible. I rather doubt Obi-wan was idle all those years (although with no-one to practice against there would, of course, have been some measure of atrophy). I accept what you say about fighting for time, though.

By that time in RotJ, though, Vader is on the edge of redemption. Not only is Luke's rage making him stronger and faster(again, the Dark Side feeding him), but Vader is becoming less and less confident in his wish to actually kill his own son. And Vader also discovers right then that he's also got a daughter...that can't exactly help his state of mind, either. That, and there is probably an element of shock and surprise at how suddenly and violently Luke attacks in defense of the idea of Leia falling.

I'm not convinced. I get what you're saying, and it makes sense. However...

I'm not sure there's actually anything that could be said to change my mind on this point. The fact is that the styles don't mesh, since the Jedi style of the prequels didn't exist at the time the OT were filmed. I expect that, if George were doing the OT now, he would film the duels differently.

Buy the soundtracks.

Oh, I have the soundtracks. But the dialogue in the films is so bad (especially for much of AotC) that I think I might prefer to switch it off, and watch the film with only the John Williams score going. However, since none of the soundtracks quite matches the images on the screen, they don't quite plug the gap.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I wonder how many Jedi Vader just force chokes to death? Most jedi probably couldn't withstand his power. In the novelization of Sith they mention how he cannot feel the force like he used to since he's so mechanical. In the commentary for Empire Lucas says the same thing, that before he could have overthrown Palpatine by himself, but now that he so mechanical he needs Luke to help him do it.
However it is never alluded to in the movies in any way.

I never got the idea that Vader was weak in the force in anyway from the first trilogy. He can force choke people who are miles away from him, he can whip up a telekentic whirlwind of heavy objects and crap without even gesturing at anything, he can block blasters with his hands, etc. Of course there is nothing to really compare him to other than Luke, Yoda, and the Emperor of course. So maybe he is still a vastly powerful Jedi, but not as powerful as he was, or could have been? And why would having cyber parts slow him down that much? Why woudln't they make superior limbs for him?

The SW books are very hit or miss, but I"m going to be all over the Vader during the purge novel.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Um, where did you get this from? It's never mentioned in the movies that cybernetics affects the ability to use the Force. I mean, it's a cool theory and all, but I'm not aware of anything to actually support it.

That one's straight from Lucas. He's stated multiple times that the cybernetics limit one's ability to use the Force, thus weakening Vader and making him controllable for the Emperor.

I'm not convinced. I get what you're saying, and it makes sense. However...

I'm not sure there's actually anything that could be said to change my mind on this point. The fact is that the styles don't mesh, since the Jedi style of the prequels didn't exist at the time the OT were filmed. I expect that, if George were doing the OT now, he would film the duels differently.

That's obviously a debatable point. Who knows what Lucas would have done, but we work with what we've got. The styles are definitely different, but there are ways to rationalize them without too much reaching within the story itself instead of the obvious "No Nick Gillard to do the fights."

I never got the idea that Vader was weak in the force in anyway from the first trilogy. He can force choke people who are miles away from him, he can whip up a telekentic whirlwind of heavy objects and crap without even gesturing at anything, he can block blasters with his hands, etc. Of course there is nothing to really compare him to other than Luke, Yoda, and the Emperor of course. So maybe he is still a vastly powerful Jedi, but not as powerful as he was, or could have been? And why would having cyber parts slow him down that much? Why woudln't they make superior limbs for him?

Its not that Vader is weak, but instead weaker than he was before the cybernetics. He was the Chosen One, the strongest Jedi ever to exist. We saw him at the height of his power in RotS, but that was really it. After that point, he's got the cybernetics and his strength in the Force drops.

Also, the cybernetics don't slow him down a huge amount...its more that they are inferior to the strength that the Force provides. Yes, they're still great when compared to a normal limb, but they still pale in comparison to how the Force can keep him fast and strong.

That, and another thing is that Anakin has always been extremely arrogant. There's nothing to say he doesn't tone down his fights for the simple reason that he feels he's too good and doesn't need to waste any energy. The entire Luke/Vader duel in ESB is all about him simply toying with Luke the entire time. The poor kid never had a chance.

 

[delericho]

That one's straight from Lucas.

Ah, now we hit another one of my issues. Lucas has a nasty habit of being horribly inconsistent (like the way the trilogy was always based on the Hero's Journey myth, as explained in "Hero With a Thousand Faces", except that the saga as a whole has also always been about Anakin's journey, which in no way resembles that myth). He also has a rather significant interest in persuading us that it's all one consistent whole, and that any perceived oddities are, in fact, intentional.

Still, arguing Star Wars is akin to arguing alignment - best not done.

That's obviously a debatable point. Who knows what Lucas would have done, but we work with what we've got. The styles are definitely different, but there are ways to rationalize them without too much reaching within the story itself instead of the obvious "No Nick Gillard to do the fights."

Thing is, just about everything can be rationalised away. I'm sure it's even possible to explain how we can have a celibate Jedi order when teenaged padawans must presumably spend at least some time in the Jedi Temple, and there's no evidence that the genders are segregated. (I figured it would be cool if there were a secret Jedi breeding programme, intent on creating their own Chosen One.)

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this thread, unless someone posts something especially compelling.