Your Group is Missing a Role

[Mengu]

Personally, from a DM's perspective, from running a group of 4 with 2.5 leaders (a pacifist cleric, a taclord and a chaladin - the 4th is an wizard), it can be really frustrating - its really difficult to make an encounter that feels challenging without making it a potential TPK, given the multiple healing triggers that can be thrown around every encounter.

I can make a recommendation for this sort of party composition. Provide more scenarios where "kill 'em all" is not the ultimate goal. Challenge them with time limits. Get to the time bomb before it explodes. Make the objective to not let anyone escape and warn the rest. Or give them a hold the line type scenario. Another good way is to occasionally deny a short rest. Run one level equivalent encounter, have some of them get away, and come back with friends for another level equivalent encounter, giving the PC's enough time to mop up what they are fighting, but not quite enough time for a full short rest. These sort of scenarios will challenge their per encounter healing resources and their durability.

All else fails, kill the passifrigin cleric, have a purple worm gulp down his body, a souleater consume his soul, and wipe the memory of his existence from his friends with a gaggle of mindscramblers. (If anyone plays a pacifist cleric in my game, such will be their fate.)

 

[TarionzCousin]

I wouldn't necessarily choose Controller as the role to leave behind, but I would definitely choose to leave behind the "I am always happy to include my so-called 'allies' in my Area-of-Effect attacks and end up damaging the party more than most monsters" kind of Controller.

That particular role really annoys me.

 

[Pickles JG]

I believe any role is expendable as a character slot as you can make up for it by builds & MC feats (& hybridising - though that is probably cheating).

Healing will be missed the most as it is what most makes PCs different from monsters. PCs usually all stay up while monsters attrite.

Damage output is the next most important thing as it has to be done & it handily reduces incoming damage & it’s more fun playing high risk/high reward than leader spam. The ability to kill off minions fast is an aspect of this not really of controllers & is useful but situational depending of course on the presence of minions. When I DM I put monsters in if someone has gone to the trouble of being able to deal with them effectively to make the player feel special J.

Control whether by marking or by status effects is optional & is like healing in reverse - fights take longer but you take less incoming damage.

Buffing is often effective & fun & makes the teamwork shine but is really just another way of doing more damage (or reducing incoming damage) & is optional.

Control is more effective at higher level as there is not much of it on at willpowers so you need your 4 encounter powers & occasional daily to make it work. WOTC seemed to be careful not to allow it to be too effective as it’s pretty dull to lock down fights. Obviously this did not apply to Solos & they have had their resistance to control bumped up. However what restricts one controller does not restrict several & parties can be very control heavy & really gum up encounters making some of them trivial. This is without necessarily having multiple controller classes, a lot of other classes can pack in status effects & debuffs (my rogue has status effects on all his powers except at wills & his AOE, which might also be considered controllery). These often come with a low cost in reduced damage - the cost is typically that you tend to want to spread out your attacks & effects rather than focus firing.

Anyway I would go with strikers/hybrid or MC leader everything else is optional (though valid & fun, except pacifist clerics who really aren’t)

 

[Eldragon]

I don't actually think any of the roles are essential, or even matter that much for party makeup.

The DM may have to pull his punches in some cases, but that is no different than having to add a few monsters if you have 7 players, or remove a few monsters if you only have 3 players.

Is a party with Defender, Striker, Leader, Controller (DSLC) better at killing stuff and staying alive than the all-Controller party? Yes. But an all Controller party with smart tactically minded PCs will do much better than the DSLC party with players that don't work as a team and generally make bad decisions.

For me the role is used to clue the player into how a class generally plays out more than its role in team-work. That way I can look at a class and read "Martial Controller" and have a good idea of that classes powers, hitpoints, damage potential, etc.

In short, I think the players' skill (and DM's) at the game matters more than the actual role.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

oopsy ooops

oops

 

[mneme]

Felon: You can build the utility wizard now, though -- it's the Tome wizard. Build a wizard; give him a "hand" style familiar, and get him cheap spellbooks (or rather, Tome implements) to let him swap dailies to whatever is appropriate.

The only problem is that spellbooks are now uncommon.

 

[Nifft]

Well, that will depend on the individual leader builds.

Not more or less than any other party.

It's true that you could build an all-Leader party that is ineffective, but that doesn't speak to my point at all. You could easily create an ineffective party with any selection of roles.

Personally, from a DM's perspective, from running a group of 4 with 2.5 leaders (a pacifist cleric, a taclord and a chaladin - the 4th is an wizard), it can be really frustrating - its really difficult to make an encounter that feels challenging without making it a potential TPK, given the multiple healing triggers that can be thrown around every encounter.

Hmm. Is the Taclord strong enough to hit stuff himself, or is he Lazy?

I could see a problem if the Warlord was not able to contribute to damage.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Katana_Geldar]

Being able to do damage is not everything though. If you have a tac warlord like I have seen run, it works wonders when you hand out MBAs to a high-powered striker who you are flanking with.

 

[Garthanos]

In player parties without a controller, I usually didn't bother using any minions.

Sniff I have fighters who would miss them... I mean cleaving a pair of heads off or slashing one while putting a boot on the skull of the other... ahh very satisfying ;p

 

[Ryujin]

Sniff I have fighters who would miss them... I mean cleaving a pair of heads off or slashing one while putting a boot on the skull of the other... ahh very satisfying ;p

Yes, I also rather enjoy creating a tidal wave of exploding enemies, with a wave of the hand, and would certainly miss minions.