Your honor, I object.

[bodhi]

Hmm - maybe I should start calling myself a rules reference instead.

Good distinction.

A reference is neutral, or perhaps comments on the relative strength of arguments.

A rules lawyer is an advocate, generally for itself.

 

[Machiavelli]

I just consider the DM to be the All-powerful God of the D&D Microcosmos. We have 2 weeks between sessions to email back and forth about problems, so that when game time comes, we just kick butt and have fun for a afternoon, without rules troubles.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't agree that a rules lawyer necessarily looks to gain advantage.

I would consider someone who pulls out an obscure rule which, read strictly, operates to his own disadvantage to be a rules lawyer also.

-Hyp.

I agree with Hyp here.

The term Rules Lawyer is getting a bad rep and being thrown in with power gamer and munchkin.

I gained the label Rules Lawyer because I was pointing out rules to the Dm but saying it was his call as long as he knew what the actual rules said.

I also had a reputation for citing rules that caused my PCs to have as many if not more problems than rules that "helped" them.

Thus my gaming group came to trust my judgement on what the rules said or didn't say becaues they knew I wasn't selecting quoting them in order to gain an advantage. Which the the part from the Wiki definition that I absoultely disagree with. It is not about gaining advantages it is about the rules.

I view a true rules lawyer as someone who would have Lawful Neutral alignment in how it would apply to this issue. There are rules and rules neither good nor evil they are just rules. Rules must be followed, they can be changed but until that time they are the rules.

Now, I like to think I have grown past that stage in my life where it is all balcka and white.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

well, why dont we change it on wiki so it reads right.

 

[FireLance]

I've noticed that many posters wrongly equate a munchkin with a powergamer when complaining. They're similar beasts, but the difference is a powergamer doesn't ruin the fun for everyone else.

While I generally agree with what you've posted, I think the main factor that distinguishes a powergamer from a munchkin is that the powergamer works within the generally accepted interpretations of the rules. While this has a significantly lower chance of ruining the fun for everyone else (assuming a fairly well-balanced game system), it could still happen.

 

[Nyaricus]

A powergamer is someone who makes an optimum character (a "build") for a specific purpose within the context of the D&D rules. This purpose can be combat, or diplomacy, or being able to cast 9th level Arcane and Divine spells, or anything else the player wants. The key points here are the words optimum and within the context of the D&D rules.

A munchkin uses loopholes and interpretations of vague rules to justify incredible builds that fall far beyond the context and intent of the rules. A munchkin is essentially a powergamer on steroids: a powergamer merely does his intended role well; a munchkin will try to break the game via their "cool" character. I've noticed that many posters wrongly equate a munchkin with a powergamer when complaining. They're similar beasts, but the difference is a powergamer doesn't ruin the fun for everyone else.

A rules laywer is someone who theoretically has memorized the rulebooks and will cite various rules (typically obscure ones) in order to gain an advantage and "one-up" the DM. See Brian Van Hoose in Knights of the Dinner Table for a perfect example.

And, for the record, it's perfectly possible to be a powergamer and a good roleplayer. They are not mutually exclusive. Not all powergamers are arrogant jerks who want to hog the spotlight and boss everyone else around via threats because their character is more powerful than the rest of the group combined.

Wayne, would you essentually called a min-maxer a powergamer then?

Because you describe that in a simialr manner to what I would a min-maxer; and personally I consider these to be similar beasts.

Great post btw

 

[Goolpsy]

I would call a min-maxer for a powergamer...

On the subject of Rule lawyers.. :

I would choose between Rule reference and rule lawyer...
In my opinion and experience, a rule lawyer is someone who stops the Game/destroys it/halts it/ just to make sure all go by the Book and nothing is improvised if theres a clear describtion of it somewhere... Rule lawyers Stops the game by citing rules in inapropriate times...

A Rule refence is someone with great knowledge of the rules, citing rules when needed or asked... not interrupting anyone or anything for the sake of rules....

 

[wayne62682]

Yes, a min/maxer and a powergamer are the same thing, just different terms.

 

[werk]

I prefer to just draw down my eyebrows and frown a little.

That way, it gives the DM the option of asking what needs to be corrected, or carrying on regardless

-Hyp.

That's exactly what I do too! I may even clear my throat, so the DM notices 'the look'. A lot of the time, he just keeps going, which works out fine.

That's probably why I don't consider myself a rules lawyer...well that, and my lack of accurate rules knowledge

 

[Nail]

I'd consider myself both a Rules Lawyer and a Power Gamer.

IMO, a Rules Lawyer knows the rules, and the various interpretations of those rules, very well. Well enough to know what rule appies, when a rule is ambiguous, and how to implement the various options the ambiguity provides.

IMO, a Power Gamer is one who seeks to build the best possible PC he can, given a role or type of PC he or she wants to play. That is, if the role is a bard that focuses on back-up spells, you can be assured that the party is well supported!

I'll note that these terms are also used in a pejorative sense, usually by those that don't know the rules and that make PCs that always die.