Your honor, I object.

"Rules Lawyer" is pejorative likely because "lawyer" is pejorative. :)

Use a different term for people like Hyp, call him/her a Rules Expert. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would not want to be called that (who cares about rules anyway).
 

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ahh, yes, drawing the eyebrows and frowning a little. I am very familiar with this rules mechanic.

I am DM for a group that includes the DM for the group in which I am a player. Does that make sense?

Anyway, when he makes a ruling in the game where I'm a player, I occasionally have to object, even if it hurts my PC right there. It is because I strive for rules equality between the two campaigns, and I wouldn't want him to rule in a way in which I would not rule in the game that I run. And vice versa. He occasionally speaks up in that game (though less often than I do. Does that make me the lawyer?).

So, yeah, integrity is a bitch.
 

Infiniti2000 said:
"Rules Lawyer" is pejorative likely because "lawyer" is pejorative. :)

Use a different term for people like Hyp, call him/her a Rules Expert.
I'll second that assessment. :cool:
 

Not everybody call the same thing in the same way. I´ve normally understood that rules lawyerism also implies insisting on that a rule shoudl be applied and crying foul is the DM considers that an ad-hoc rule should be applied instead. For example, a low level monk insisting that he can break through an adamantine barrier punching with his fists, citing various rules that allow him to do so, and protesting the Dm´s ad-hoc ruling telling him that his fists will be damaged if he tries to do so.

Also, opposed to a munchkin (who wants to make the most powerful character, period) a power gamer can work within sef-imposed restrictions, and work within those restrictions, frequently a character concept. For example, he could aim to make an arcane spellcaster that won´t ever deal hit point damage because he´s a pacifist.
 

Many of the statements here are made with the assumption that only players are being considered.

I should point out that it is entirely possible to powergame as a DM (for example, redoing feat allotments and such for monsters so as to make them more effective.) Of course, this often falls under the catch-all term "RBDM" instead. ;)
 

moritheil said:
I should point out that it is entirely possible to powergame as a DM (for example, redoing feat allotments and such for monsters so as to make them more effective.) Of course, this often falls under the catch-all term "RBDM" instead. ;)
OK, you caught me. :D

I am tempted to start a thread that asks for a definition of RBDM. I fear that it would dwindle to a post linking to my personal profile, then a post linking to frankthedm's profile, then a post linking to Infiniti2000's profile...
 

Bad Paper said:
OK, you caught me. :D

I am tempted to start a thread that asks for a definition of RBDM. I fear that it would dwindle to a post linking to my personal profile, then a post linking to frankthedm's profile, then a post linking to Infiniti2000's profile...

It's defined here:
logo_phpBB.gif


It's not about killing PCs.

-Hyp.
 

Someone said:
Not everybody call the same thing in the same way. I´ve normally understood that rules lawyerism also implies insisting on that a rule shoudl be applied and crying foul is the DM considers that an ad-hoc rule should be applied instead. For example, a low level monk insisting that he can break through an adamantine barrier punching with his fists, citing various rules that allow him to do so, and protesting the Dm´s ad-hoc ruling telling him that his fists will be damaged if he tries to do so.

Well, to be fair, if the DM is going to impose a house rule, it's polite to let the players know before the situation arises...

(Though I must admit, I initially misread your example as a monk with Ki Strike (Adamantine) punching through a normal wall, rather than a normal monk punching through an adamantine wall!)

-Hyp.
 

A Monk with Ki Strike (Adamantine) probably ought to be able to punch through a conventional wooden wall without getting more than one or two points of damage total from the shattered piece of wall (that'd be a house rule though), because he's essentially (by the RAW) hitting wood with adamantine. Not that that's something that makes a whole lot of sense ..

A low-level monk wouldn't be able to deal enough damage to bypass the hardness 20 of Adamantine anyways.

In one of the groups I'm in as a player, I'm essentially a Rules Reference - when somebody doesn't remember exactly what a rule is, I'm the one they turn to and ask, including the DM on occasion.
I'm also, to an extent, what I consider a powergamer - I pick a niche for my character and try and get him to be above average for what he does and better than the rest of the party at it, but I don't try and exploit every single possibility I can, I pick and choose, and my PCs are generally decent at at least one or two things outside of their specialty, but not always.
I don't recall anybody having called me a powergamer, yet, but that's probably because my PC's go into situations outside of their niches to help out - the current party is a monk, a druid, a rogue, a favored soul of Olidammara, a bard, and my scout. My scout's supposed to be a ranged expert, but because he's carrying a big melee weapon (a falchion, he's racially proficient) and has got a decent attack bonus with it, he's winding up in melee more than he is shooting in order to keep the monk and rogue(who spends his time split between melee and archery too) from getting overwhelmed - he's sometimes actually engaged in melee on his own because the monk and rogue are covering the approaches to the casters. Melee's not really his thing, straight archery is - he's got the best ranged attack and damage in the party, but he's not exclusively optimized to archery - he's got decent melee capability, too, but he's by no means the best character that he could be, he's good, above average, but not the best.


In essence, we're all technically min-maxers/powergamers to an extent - I mean, how many of us would, for an archery range-expert PC take our feat selections straight melee and mounted - probably next to none, we'd take our feat selections towards archery/ranged combat in general, i.e. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, find me an archery-expert type character without those two feats - it'd be pretty hard to pull off - we pick feats that go with our intended character build, not ones that are for a different build.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Well, to be fair, if the DM is going to impose a house rule, it's polite to let the players know before the situation arises...

(Though I must admit, I initially misread your example as a monk with Ki Strike (Adamantine) punching through a normal wall, rather than a normal monk punching through an adamantine wall!)

-Hyp.

I totally agree that the DM should warn about major house roules in advance, but not small ad-hoc rulings for rare, extreme, one-of-a-kind circumstances (other than he´s likely to make those rulings, of course) That´s one of the reasons we still have DM´s instead of computers. But that´s outside the thread´s topic.
 

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