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Your ideal setting

Whoops! I think I messed up which word to use. I think I meant "grim" more likely than "gritty", I'm not sure. I'm not much for gritty settings as you describe them, either, but I really hate something else that I find in too many settings which I can describe only by example:
Well, they're related. That's why "grim n gritty" is kinda a watchword.
Silver said:
You know how some people complain that they don't need a game to give them a rule for every situation? I pretty much feel the same way about all the threats and dangers and hardships the beings of a setting are up against. It gets me very confused, as I look at all this stuff and go "Hey, exactly how do people live through all this?". I really can't seem to see the world from a non-fatalist position. I need a setting where all the comfortably dull stuff normal people go through is detailed so I know what that's like, and the rest is left up to me.
Er... because that's what makes the game interesting? Similarly, that's what makes fiction interesting? Gaming about characters who kind of go about their everyday lives without facing significant threats tends to be pretty boring to most gamers, I'd reckon. I don't think there's a "grim movement" that is causing settings to focus on the dangers and threats of the setting so much as it's economy of space. A campaign setting can only contain so much material, and threats and dangers are the stuff that actually move the game forward. Long tracts on wedding rituals, the legal code, how coopers make their living in such and such a city or menus for inns and taverns means less actually more engaging content.
 

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Er... because that's what makes the game interesting? Similarly, that's what makes fiction interesting? Gaming about characters who kind of go about their everyday lives without facing significant threats tends to be pretty boring to most gamers, I'd reckon.
That's not what my opinion is about. What I'm saying is that published settings (I suppose I should let peoples' personal creations go since it's made for a more specific audience) give me 101 Threats, and then leaves me holding the bag as to what happens in the meantime.
I can come up with threats to drown anyone. What I can't do is figure out what else exists in the world.
I don't think there's a "grim movement" that is causing settings to focus on the dangers and threats of the setting[…]
Well it certainly feels like that. I just get the feeling that the way people write so many and que up to say that they'd like things a bit more "grim 'n' gritty" indicates a lack of satiation regarding their desire.
 

Brustian reality. No matter how powerful the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will cramp his style.
Ironically, doesn't a wizard get stabbed between the shoulderblades with a broadsword in the very same book, and continue on with no noticeable cramping of her style whatsoever?
 

That's true for me as well, or at least the "implied setting" of 4e is a lot closer to my vision than something like "Greyhawk as default" ever was.

Making no judgements about the rules; I still haven't read very far into them, and since my group has no interest in switching (myself included) to a new system at this point, it's a moot point. I do have to agree that the implied setting assumptions about 4e are very intriguing to me, though, and went along many lines that I had already adapted into my homebrews.

Yep JD, the core setting and assumptions in the ruleset are real darn close to what I'd been using in my homebrew for years. I also really like that magic items are not the core of a character, but instead his skills and abilities are. Its making it a breeze to convert my setting, magic system, and cosmology to 4e.

The rules have a few holes in them for my tastes (no long-term wounds, lack of rituals, no druid and barbarian, etc), but overall I'm very happy with 4e, I've made fixes to those areas, and my players are loving it. I know we're at different points concerning our happiness with 3.5, but if you get the chance to play 4e at some point- you might just be pleasantly surprised- I know I was.
 

[*]Much more Arabian Nights and classic Sword & Sorcery rather than High Fantasy. I'm not going to out-Tolkien Tolkien anytime soon, and if I tried, my own relative lameness would be readily apparent.
For me, too. Other than that for fantasy settings, I'd like to see something Rifts-ish but not as Palladiumated.
 

Interestingly, my two main interests are both tied in with C.A. Smith:

Sword & Sorcery & Science: Equal parts Thundarr and Xothique, seasoned with some Dying Earth. Post-apocalyptic fantasy with ancient bits of technology lying around. No Clerics, but plenty of evil sorcerers. If it were illustrated, it would be done by Brom and Frazetta.

Mythic Earth: Quasi-historical setting in a mythical space within medieval Western Christendom. I've been looking at Smith's Averoigne set in the 12th Century for this. Lawful (this is OD&D) Clerics are Christian (and the adventuring/fighting ones are members of the Military Orders) and Chaotic Clerics are anti-/pre-Christian types. Humanoids are all classes as Fey, either of the Summer or Winter Courts. An emphasis on necromancy and illusion magics. The forests are dark places and your senses often deceive you there. Illustrations would be by John Howe.
 

Can I ask a question?

Why does there seem to be such a large proliferation of "low, dark, gritty" settings or setting elements? Especially gritty: it seems that every new setting I run across, published or otherwise, is trying to focus on the gritty elements.

I don't think that there are that many well-done low dark gritty settings out there. The major ones published by WotC (Greyhawk, FR, Eberron) certainly aren't, at least not in my book.

Since there’s been some discussion upthread about the meaning and attraction of “grittiness” in a setting, let me try to clarify what I meant.

By “gritty” I mean a setting that includes and often emphasizes the darker, more “realistic” (obviously a relative term in FRPGs) aspects of life in a quasi early medieval world where life is nasty, brutish and short and people behave accordingly. In a gritty setting, the good don’t always win; in fact, it’s sometimes hard to find any of them at all. There’s no archetypical fairytale “knights in shining armour”; only frightened, desperate people trying to deal with hard times and, just maybe, reluctantly, becoming heroes in the process. In a gritty setting, nuance and detail matter more, because rewards are few and hard-won and setbacks are frequent. Often, success means just getting by, choosing the lesser of two evils.

Some people may wonder why this style of gaming is attractive. And indeed, for short campaigns or pick-up games, there is probably little appeal to it. Why to start out as a lowly peasant who is glad to make it through the session in one piece when you can be a hero from the start? Certainly, from a gameist perspective, more powerful protagonists offer more interesting options, both to the player as well as to the GM designing the campaign. You can follow up powerful opponents with more powerful ones and have heroes turn into near superheroes, battling demons and demigods, all in the span of a few sessions. I’m sure that to create these kinds of plots takes real skill and, if done right, is a very enjoyable thing. The reason I don’t is because a) I fairly suck at it and b) my group likes for our campaigns to go on over long periods of time.

And here’s why I like my settings gritty. My campaigns have tended to run for two or three years, spanning probably 80 or more sessions, and I believe that under these circumstances, the individual episode’s dramatic arc must take second place to that of the campaign. Otherwise, things get bland. If the PCs start out as minor heroes, vanquish dragons, powerful undead and arch-villains all in the first ten sessions, how do I top this?

“Things were great and then they got even better and better” just doesn’t make for compelling long-running plots. “Things were really tough and then, gradually, there was a glimmer of hope and finally, against all odds, the heroes prevailed (for the moment anyway)” is much stronger in terms of dramatic potential.

So I prefer gritty, because it gives me more room to pace long-running campaigns, and slowly develop challenges, enemies and allies. The rewards, for our group, are that by starting out slow, gradually, a really well-defined world and hero personae emerge. And that’s satisfying in a way that you just don’t get from one-shots (or indeed any other kind of game, imho).
 

Also, while I'm rambling, I'd like to comment on why I think there are only a few "gritty" settings and why all the major WotC settings (including 4e's implied one) tend toward high fantasy.

If you skim the replies to the OP's question, you'll find that people who like gritty, deep, (presumably) long-running campaigns tend to reduce content rather than expand it: Less races, monsters, classes; limits on powers; reduced scope of the campaign (ie distant gods, limited plane-travel etc).

IMHO, at the bottom of this is the problem of breadth versus depth. The more high-fantasy elements your campaign contains, the (exponentially) harder it becomes to make sense of them all in relation to one another. It's hard enough to come up with detailed, credible, deep personae just using the standard set of, say, humans, elves and dwarves. Throw Dragonborn, Tieflings and Mind-Flayers in the mix, and you've got a real challenge on your hands: What are they like, deep down; how do they relate to one another? The more high-fantasy elements a campaign contains, the more it tends toward archetypes and standard genre tropes - often bordering on stereotype and rehash, in my experience.

The problem is that the major WotC settings must aim for the broadest possible markets. Exclude certain races and classes and you alienate your customers. Arguably, most people look for expansion of content (new races, classes, feats and powers) in these books. So keeping these players happy is the safe bet.

Conversely, publishing a reduced, deep setting will make a few people very happy (cf. Midnight) but it will probably not apeal to the majority of gamers; among them many who actually like gritty/reduced settings but not this kind of gritty.

Make sense?

J.
 

More Sword & Sorcery, less to no Tolkien.

No "medieval society with modern morals implanted to judge what's good and evil".

Human-centric/dominated.

No "Magic = technology".

Heroic - as in the old greek myths.
 

One that doesn't have the iconic protagonist character problems – Forgotten Realms (Elminster, Drizzt etc)/Dragonlance (Tanis, Raistlin etc)/Dark Sun (Rikus, Sadira etc, though Dark Sun is one of my favourites, but, you know what I mean).

That's one of the things I dug about Planescape, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and my all time favourite: Al-Qadim – no laundry list of powerful NPCs wandering around.
 

Into the Woods

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