Your money or your life?

[glass]

P.S. How does a huge Dragon manage to stalk someone?

From a few thousand feat up? Dragons have very good perception skills!


glass.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

From a few thousand feat up? Dragons have very good perception skills!

And senses!


Jeff

 

[ExploderWizard]

Would my players have been more likely to surrender, promise to leave the city, and retreat if the dragon had let them keep all or most of their gear? I can't say for certain, of course, but I think they would have. (They would have been lying, of course. I can't remember the dragon's Sense Motive score right now ... )

And in that case, there would be no real consequences arising from thier decision to fight against better judgement. It would be like giving the PC's a "do over" because they discovered that they got involved in a fight that wasn't such a good idea. Thats kind of like running a pick a path adventure and letting the players read both possible outcomes before choosing one.

 

[Kraydak]

Going back and reading the OP (as opposed to the followup posts) more carefully, the PC *most certainly* behaved rationally.

Maybe (maybe) they actually could have fled at the beginning. Note that running from a dragon is usually futile, and running from a dragon with some grappling abilities is even more futile.

The players knew the dragon was within their capabilities (as a full party at least). The PCs were not hopelessly outclassed.

The dragon would have to be retarded to let the PCs go. She wanted the PCs allies *dead*, people at the PC's level tend not to take defeat lightly, and the party as a whole can take her and (even without the sting of defeat) wants to. There is no "will let you live because you are no threat to her nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" here. The dragon might have had plans that needed captured PCs, but that would be the most optimistic interpretation of the surrender option. On the other hand, a lucky crit could drop her low enough that she would flee rather than risk her own death.

This is the ye olde traditional: the PC are facing enemies that they cannot run from, that have no earthly reason to let the PCs live and every earthly reason to kill the PCs, and yet the DM somehow expects them to either run or surrender in the face of superior opposition without the benefit of metagaming. Gear is just the icing on the cake. The real problem here is that the players didn't follow the script that they weren't told they were supposed to follow and that didn't make sense.

 

[Starbuck_II]

From a few thousand feat up? Dragons have very good perception skills!


glass.

No, no they don't.
Remember -1 per 10 feet to see them fronm that high up.
Let's use use hypotetical White dragon age Old:
Spot: class skill (so he has at most 24 ranks).
Add in Wisdom: +1.
We get a big +25 for Spot use. He can only see 250 feet away. Since he flies 200 feet...we conclude he can see up to flying range.

Dragon senses aren't the distance seeing, but within 60 feet kind. Thus, he can't see auto-them unless he is really close.

And as dragons are poor fliers...I still can't see the stalking working.

Didn't the OP say the players knew they were being stalked? How did they know?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

And in that case, there would be no real consequences arising from thier decision to fight against better judgement. It would be like giving the PC's a "do over" because they discovered that they got involved in a fight that wasn't such a good idea. Thats kind of like running a pick a path adventure and letting the players read both possible outcomes before choosing one.

Absolutely. And if a DM did that to me, as a player, I'd be extraordinarily annoyed, not grateful. So I went with playing the dragon as an NPC with real motivations and behavior beyond what can be found in a lousy video game. Apparently, though, if you've been following the conversation, there cannot possibly exist an explanation for why a non-retarded dragon wouldn't kill the PCs, so man, I suck.


Jeff

 

[ExploderWizard]

Going back and reading the OP (as opposed to the followup posts) more carefully, the PC *most certainly* behaved rationally.

Maybe (maybe) they actually could have fled at the beginning. Note that running from a dragon is usually futile, and running from a dragon with some grappling abilities is even more futile.

The players knew the dragon was within their capabilities (as a full party at least). The PCs were not hopelessly outclassed.

Bold text emphasis mine. As far as escape is concerned, if the party were caught on an open plain with no cover there may indeed be nowhere to run. The PC's were in a city with lots of walls, buildings, ect for shelter.

Chosing to fight because they thought there were no other options was just that-thier choice.

If the PC's had chosen to flee, and the DM made it impossible, the result would have been the same with one major difference-they would have effectively had no choice and the DM would have been an asshat for staging such an encounter.

 

[LostSoul]

Players fear loss of fun more than loss of their characters.

If the character dies, they get to make a new one with an exciting new background.

If they lose their magic, they become ineffectual, and boring.

And yes, this is a direct result of character's reliance on magic items.

Yeah, I agree. They made a rational decision.

In the next session, either I play a level 8 PC who is effectively level 6, or a level 7 PC. What am I going to choose? And hey, I might win the fight, and next time play a level 9 PC.

Choosing not to fight is in no way a rational decision unless the player has some kind of intangible reason for continuing with the same PC.

edit: Yes, my level 8 PC operating with level 6 effectiveness might be able to get his loot back. But my level 7 PC could grab the loot from the dead level 8 PC in the same way - actually, it'd be easier, because I'm more effective - and then my total effectiveness will be greater than if I had continued on with the original PC.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Yeah, I agree. They made a rational decision.

In the next session, either I play a level 8 PC who is effectively level 6, or a level 7 PC. What am I going to choose? And hey, I might win the fight, and next time play a level 9 PC.

Choosing not to fight is in no way a rational decision unless the player has some kind of intangible reason for continuing with the same PC.

edit: Yes, my level 8 PC operating with level 6 effectiveness might be able to get his loot back. But my level 7 PC could grab the loot from the dead level 8 PC in the same way - actually, it'd be easier, because I'm more effective - and then my total effectiveness will be greater than if I had continued on with the original PC.

The rational decision was made by the player as a metagame decision. Its because of such "rational" decisions that replacement PC's should join the party at whatever level the DM decides based on how "rational" the choice to die was. In this case I would say 5th level max.

 

[LostSoul]

The rational decision was made by the player as a metagame decision. Its because of such "rational" decisions that replacement PC's should join the party at whatever level the DM decides based on how "rational" the choice to die was. In this case I would say 5th level max.

That's one way to handle it. The trade-off there is that you're stuck playing a 5th level guy when everyone else is 8th level. That might not be okay for a certain group.

edit: I don't care about "metagame" decisions. If you don't want players to make decisions like that, don't reward them for doing so. That way they can engage and play the game fully instead of having to hold back.

Another thing to consider is that, if you're 5th level and everyone else is 8th and this level disparity bothers you, it's in your best interest to sabotage the rest of the PCs so they die and balance is restored. Now, yeah, this is dickish behaviour, but you don't want to game to reward socially disruptive behaviour.

It seems to me that the solution, without having to re-write 3E from the ground up (getting rid of the immense value of magic items), is to give each specific PC intangible benefits - things like fame and positions of authority in the game world.