Your opinion, a Drow or Duergar

[Kae'Yoss]

Drow, no question. Not because of any stuff about peons. They're just Ideal for rogues IMO: Rogues need decent Dex, Int, Cha. Drow get +2 on each of these, while duergar get no Dex or Int bonus and in fact get -4 Cha. I know you can play a rogue with Cha as a dump stat, but I at least play rogues (that behave more or less like rogues. Thugs, Blackguards or similar builds have other favoured ability scores) with those 3 ability scores high. Drow also get +2 on listen, search and spot, which are important for rogues, and they can also notice secret doors without actively looking for them.

So the drow will have a higher AC and ranged attack (maybe even melee with weapon finesse), better skill bonuses in most rogue-like skills (especially social skills) and more skill points. That's all you need - if you want Hit points, you play barbarian, anyway.

 

[Sejs]

It's always been my impression that you can add the tiefling properties to a humanoid creature. There's a 'Tieflings as characters' section in the Monster Manual that allows it as a playable race with an ECL of +1. Perhaps I'm more liberal toward the definition of Tiefling as it should be, but I believe that a humanoid with some fiend back in their family tree can be created by adding the tiefling characteristics to them. You'd have to check with your DM, of course, but I don't recall any way to play a slightly fiendish drow without combining these races (perhaps there's something in FR). Perhaps you'd want to balance it some other way, like a two-level savage progression. Anyway, I think adding tiefling adjustments (including the +1 ECL) is an effective way to make a fiendish drow.

Edit: Judging from your signature, you play with another rule variant - critical failures on skill rolls to find traps.

I don't have any problem with the idea of tiefling (or any other planetouched) as a template, but that's not how they're presented as-is; the base tiefling doesn't have any of the human racial traits, for example. An interesting idea, though, particularly if combined with the old variant tiefling traits information that Planescape had buried in it.

Heh, as for my sig, it was just one of those amusing gaming quotes that crop up now and then. Similar to "Give me a spot check. *player rolls and announces his result of 43, met with the DM's momentary pause and silent stare* You see through time. Potential futures rise and fall like ripples on a vast sea (etc, etc, etc)... oh, and also there's some guy in the bushes over there."

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It's always been my impression that you can add the tiefling properties to a humanoid creature. There's a 'Tieflings as characters' section in the Monster Manual that allows it as a playable race with an ECL of +1.

No, by the RAW, they're a distinct race, not a template, so you can't take an elf and add the tiefling template, because there is none, at least not in the core rules.

(perhaps there's something in FR).

No tieflling/drow in the FR, though there is a special kind of half-fiend, the Draegloth.


All that said, I think it would be appropriate to extrapolate a tiefling template (as well as aasimar and genasi) from the respective write-ups.

Which would be like this:

Tiefling (Inherited Template for humanoids)
Type: Change to Outsider (Native, augmented humanoid)
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
Add Darkvision 60, or increase by 60 ft.
+2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.
Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.
Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
Level adjustment +1.


That said, there are several types of variant tieflings out there, which are the result of coupling between a certain kind of humanoid and a fiend (often, the kind of fiend is specified, but not always).

There are Durzagon (Duargar/Devil as far as I can remember)
Tanarukk (Demon and Orc)
Fey'ri (Demon - strongly suggested Succubus - and Sun Elf)
And probably several others I cannot remember at the time.

Those types of tieflings aren't just a combination of the racial package and the tiefling stats. Fey'ri, for example, get to choose demonic abilities out of a list (all of which are lessened versions of Succubus powers) and can change their shape at will, into any humanoid shape.

This, of course, is maybe an even better method: Instead of taking a drow and slapping the adjustments extrapolated from the tiefling entry on it, you create a distinct drow-tiefling.

Maybe something like this

Planetouched: Tiefling - Drilith. These special kind of tiefling is the result of a ritual coupling of Drow and Marilith, a ritual that has recently been invented and used by the followers of Selvetarm. They get the usual drow stuff, and in addition (or instead of the normal stuff, they get +2 Int, +4 Dex, +2 Cha, 4 Arms, +4 listen and spot, 1/day see invisible, alter self, dimension door, mage hand and protection from good. Maybe give them some racial hit dice, perhaps as much as 4, and an appropriate level adjustment.

 

[iwatt]

Add Darkvision 60, or increase by 60 ft.

Shouldn't it be : Darkvision 60' or as base creature, whichever is higher. As written what you propose would have Drow-Tieflings with Darkvision 180'. Better than anything else in the game. Plus the poor DM now has to draw way too many squares .

The tiefling template I use for humanoids is the same as the above except for the Darkvision.

That said, there are several types of variant tieflings out there, which are the result of coupling between a certain kind of humanoid and a fiend (often, the kind of fiend is specified, but not always).

There are Durzagon (Duargar/Devil as far as I can remember)
Tanarukk (Demon and Orc)
Fey'ri (Demon - strongly suggested Succubus - and Sun Elf)
And probably several others I cannot remember at the time.

Those types of tieflings aren't just a combination of the racial package and the tiefling stats. Fey'ri, for example, get to choose demonic abilities out of a list (all of which are lessened versions of Succubus powers) and can change their shape at will, into any humanoid shape.

Just to nitpick : I think the races you mention are the product of a lot of inbreeding, until these subspecies bred true. At least the Tanaruk and Fey'ri (I don't know about the Durzagon). A tiefling, according to the flavor text, is the descendant of normal human parents who somewere in their past have "some" fiendish ancestry that shows up.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Shouldn't it be : Darkvision 60' or as base creature, whichever is higher. As written what you propose would have Drow-Tieflings with Darkvision 180'. Better than anything else in the game. Plus the poor DM now has to draw way too many squares .

I think it could work either way.

Just to nitpick : I think the races you mention are the product of a lot of inbreeding, until these subspecies bred true. At least the Tanaruk and Fey'ri (I don't know about the Durzagon). A tiefling, according to the flavor text, is the descendant of normal human parents who somewere in their past have "some" fiendish ancestry that shows up.

Still, they're officially tieflings. IMO, tieflings are humanoids with outsider ancestry, but usually not immediate ancestry, or they would be half-fiends.

 

[Seeten]

Drow make great rogues. Duergar? Not so much.

 

[iwatt]

Drow make great rogues. Duergar? Not so much.

I disagree. IME rogues have two weaknesses. Low will/Fort save and low hps.

Drow: get +2 enchantment, and SR, which helps for the will save and somewhat for the . but they take a -25 penalty to Con and a +2 LA, which means that drow rogues are incerdibly fragile. And the SR has to take the full brunt of resisting Fort spells.ñ

Duergar: get's +2 vs spells, immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison; — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. (rogue sjkills).+1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks (almost as good as the drow), plus one of the best spell-like abilities for a rogue (Invisibility). The +2 to Con is great and I think a +1 LA is just about balanced.

Now maybe we're quibbling on what a rogue is though. For a intrigue-heavy game, in which social skills are very important, the drow is better off. For a dungeon-delving campaign, I believe, IMHO, that the Duergar is the better choice

In Hps:
An ECL 5 drow rogue will have 3d6 - 3+ 3*(Unmodified Con Bonus)
An ECL 5 duergar rogue will have 4d6 +4+ 4*(Unmodified Con Bonus)

The difference =10+(Unmodified Con Bonus) That is a lot of hitpoints.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I disagree. IME rogues have two weaknesses. Low will/Fort save and low hps.

Drow: get +2 enchantment, and SR, which helps for the will save and somewhat for the . but they take a -25 penalty to Con and a +2 LA, which means that drow rogues are incerdibly fragile. And the SR has to take the full brunt of resisting Fort spells.ñ

Duergar: get's +2 vs spells, immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison; — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. (rogue sjkills).+1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks (almost as good as the drow), plus one of the best spell-like abilities for a rogue (Invisibility). The +2 to Con is great and I think a +1 LA is just about balanced.

Now maybe we're quibbling on what a rogue is though. For a intrigue-heavy game, in which social skills are very important, the drow is better off. For a dungeon-delving campaign, I believe, IMHO, that the Duergar is the better choice

In Hps:
An ECL 5 drow rogue will have 3d6 - 3+ 3*(Unmodified Con Bonus)
An ECL 5 duergar rogue will have 4d6 +4+ 4*(Unmodified Con Bonus)

The difference =10+(Unmodified Con Bonus) That is a lot of hitpoints.

I could scarcely have said it better myself. Note also that the duergar is immune to the most common trap effects: poison and paralysis. Plus they are much cooler IMHO.

Tzarevitch

 

[iwatt]

Plus they are much cooler IMHO.

Tzarevitch

Of course...they're dwarves.


and they are EVIL.

Just imagine, a Duergar Pirate ....or a Duergar Ninja

 

[Joker]

or a Duergar Ninja

You have no idea how blasphemous that is to my ears/eyes . Kinda like that picture of the Dwarven Samurai in Complete Warrior staring down everyone. I can picture him walking down the street staring down old ladies and little dogs.