Your opinion on basing fantasy countries on real world ones

[Blue Orange]

I think the liberal-progressive movement's emphasis on extreme political correctness is going to villainize those doing so in the future; I suspect that Kalymba may have suffered from being seen as "cultural appropriation."

Politics aside, I do think an unintended side effect is going to be an increase in European-derived settings as people try to avoid culturally appropriating from areas they don't have any connection to.

We'll see in 10 years...

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Of course that is not a binary yes/no choice but a sliding scale, some developers only borrowing a general idea while others copying entire events more or less accurately like the French revolution complete with guillotines, ect. (Galt in Pathfinder as example).

I of course see the advantages in that. You provide something familiar to many people and do not need to explain everything. That also saves book space as you do not need to spell out every nuance of a specific country and can just point to its historic reference (or more likely players will figure it out themselves in many cases). Although it leaves some things in the open as the familiarity about certain countries can vary between individuals, including players, DMs and designer.

Indeed, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to "leave something in the open" depending on tables. There is nothing inherently wrong with appropriating ideas and making them your own based on familarity. Intent and context matters. If a GM has never met a French person and none of his group ever have or will, who's to be harmed if his depiction of Galt is a cartoonish version of the Revolution, with blood-drinking vampires in charge of the Revolution due to the tasty sweetness of Blue Blood? This Galt will certainly be different from that Galt as seen a French table, but that's great! Certainly, ideas at one table might sounds baroque or outright offensive to people from the other table, but there is no harm as long as the intent isn't to offend, but rather the content is there as a result of differing cultural values and expectations between groups or, more probably simple lack of familiarity (195 countries on Earth, 190 days in a school year, as Umbran said, there is nothing wrong with having only a superficial knowledge of other countries and creating your fantasy elves based on them).

Another disadvantage I see it that it gets stale at some point. There is always the Viking country, the China country, various European countries, etc. all populated with monsters from the respective mythologies and people with the corresponding culture and ethnicity.

This is more troublesome. I feel I have seen enough not-Germany, not-France and not-Venice. I'll infuse not-anything into my campaign as needed. Seeing new ideas is more valuable at this point, or novel execution of past ideas, than trying after creating Faux-Notthinghshire #198.

 

[Ixal]

Most settings have faux-Middle Ages. Slavery was nearly non-existant (replaced by impoverished serfdom, which was certainly hardly better, but adventurers rarely ask the question about the socio-economical status of the farm workers when they cross villages in my experience) until it became economically sensible to buy slaves in Africa and put them to work in the colonies. Hence the absence of slaves: the inspiration is an earlier era and the conditions to have a prosperous slave trade aren't generally met in fantasy settings. Edit: actually, they sometimes are, but it's not something that is explored by designers, certainly due to the extreme level of equality usually displayed by fantasy races.

This of course only applies to christian Europe. Islamic countries had a thriving slave trade even during the late middle ages and generally a much more complex system of slavery.
This is what I meant with people having different knowledge about history causing friction.
There was a discussion about slavery in Pathfinder on the Paizo board and eventually it devolved into an argument if it is reasonable to assume that a country heavily inspired by persia, both pre and post Islam, would use the Islamic system of slavery which differs to some extend from the Christian system most people think off when it comes to slavery.

Politics aside, I do think an unintended side effect is going to be an increase in European-derived settings as people try to avoid culturally appropriating from areas they don't have any connection to.

We'll see in 10 years...

That is imo quite a minefield. On one hand if you make countries too close to historical ones you can be accused appropriation, but if you take too much creative liberty people accuse you iff being disrespectful. (And it doesn't help that in history countrie leaders rarely acted 100% respectfull eithet)

 

[Morrus]

It is in US schools. It is like the existence of slavery here from 1619-1776 is all the fault of the US government, even though the US, as a country, is only responsible for the existence of slavery from 1776-1865. Virtually nothing is taught about the evils done in the colonies, as related to slavery, by the various European countries, or by the citizens of those countries, here in the Americas. I don't even think I have ever seen anything taught on the differences in slavery in the colonies around the world versus slavery within the European countries, or even if slavery was restricted to just the colonies and not used with the borders of the home countries.

Well maybe you should push to change the education curriculum in your country, then.

In the meantime, this thread is about basing fantasy countries on real world ones, not the American education system. Let's stay on topic please, or the thread will end up getting closed.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

This of course only applies to christian Europe. Islamic countries had a thriving slave trade even during the late middle ages and generally a much more complex system of slavery.

Indeed. I wrote Middle Ages when I meant "Western Europe Middle Ages" as the general source of inspiration for classical fantasy settings.

 

[Umbran]

Most settings have faux-Middle Ages. Slavery was nearly non-existant (replaced by impoverished serfdom, which was certainly hardly better, but adventurers rarely ask the question about the socio-economical status of the farm workers when they cross villages in my experience) until it became economically sensible to buy slaves in Africa and put them to work in the colonies. Hence the absence of slaves: the inspiration is an earlier era and the conditions to have a prosperous slave trade aren't generally met in fantasy settings. Edit: actually, they sometimes are, but it's not something that is explored by designers, certainly due to the extreme level of equality usually displayed by fantasy races.

Mod Note:

What part of Danny's "We might want to tamp down on the discussion of real world slavery" did not register?

 

[TheAlkaizer]

I really enjoy looking up translations, etymology and playing with words and word roots in other language to make up names. I also enjoy taking the geographical concept of a real world country or region and exploring it; greek archipelago, italian coast with city states, french farmlands and vineyards, etc. They're all a bit of a stereotype, but I inject a health dose of fantasy ideas in it. In my experience and the feedback I've gotten, I most often hit the right balance of it feels familiar and it's different enough.

For example, I've been working on a small setting inspired by the idea of an italian coast with city states with some snowy mountainish highlands. Mostly based around the Genoan coast and the mountains to its north. I thought of a city with a large gatehouse of redbricks and toyed with some italian words for red, door, gate, castle and came up with a name. I also use older italian names from the 1500s for many characters. But after that I think of stuff like "oh does this race fits into this setting, how does this fantasy pantheon works in this setting, etc".

As a white westerner, there's areas I wouldn't feel comfortable building that way. If I did something like that off a country in South America, I would surely be basing myself off stuff that I saw in movies with no real understanding of its real geography, history and language. In these case, I limit myself to geography and natural formations and oddities without touching to culture or language.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Indeed, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to "leave something in the open" depending on tables. There is nothing inherently wrong with appropriating ideas and making them your own based on familarity. Intent and context matters. If a GM has never met a French person and none of his group ever have or will, who's to be harmed if his depiction of Galt is a cartoonish version of the Revolution, with blood-drinking vampires in charge of the Revolution due to the tasty sweetness of Blue Blood? This Galt will certainly be different from that Galt as seen a French table, but that's great! Certainly, ideas at one table might sounds baroque or outright offensive to people from the other table, but there is no harm as long as the intent isn't to offend, but rather the content is there as a result of differing cultural values and expectations between groups or, more probably simple lack of familiarity (195 countries on Earth, 190 days in a school year, as Umbran said, there is nothing wrong with having only a superficial knowledge of other countries and creating your fantasy elves based on them).

I definitely don't agree with this. Yes, intent is important, and if you accidentally offend someone, it's not as bad as intentionally doing so... but it doesn't absolve you entirely either.

I remember explaining this to a Dutch person, who was explaining one XMas tradition where someone puts on blackface to dress up as a minstrel. She's a good person and was trying to explain that to her, this is just a tradition and not meant to offend anyone... but this will certainly offend a lot of people, regardless of intent.

And if you partake in borrowing stereotypes at your own table, even if no one from the offended group is there... eventually folks will internalize those stereotypes, partially believe them, which will inform their own behavior beyond the table. The human brain has difficulty not internalizing stereotypes and using them to influence behavior.

So bottomline, folks do have a responsibility to be informed on what is offensive, what's not, and to play their TTRPG accordingly.

 

[dragoner]

D&D is basically fantasy US, which is fine, I have no issue with that. Usually when people using real world as fantasy can get to me, is just when it is so wrong, and then I still need to be in the mood to respond. Sort of like the other day, someone was talking about the KGB but as psionic mind readers, and uh ... 99% of what the KGB did was as border patrol and FBI type police, against banditry, which had been a problem, still kind of is. Except you know, pretty much most Soviets had no contact with, or even care of what went on with the KGB. Nevertheless, a Russian who read my Solis setting, said that they say part of the fall of the Soviet Union in it, where a hundred little peripheral nations arose, wanting independence, yet still needing support. Post fall, what happens? States like Lithuania with half the GDP of Luxembourg, but 100 times the population, c'est.

I think one of the best examples of the real world to fantasy or sci-fi, is what Mark Twain said is that it bears no responsibility to make sense. Fiction often tries too hard to make sense.

 

[overgeeked]

Nearly all countries and societies in RPGs are based on real world ones. A trend which has in my opinion only increased in recent years as companies strife for a more respectful representation on noneuropean cultures which in turn makes them stick closer to the historic real world material than before.

Of course that is not a binary yes/no choice but a sliding scale, some developers only borrowing a general idea while others copying entire events more or less accurately like the French revolution complete with guillotines, ect. (Galt in Pathfinder as example).

I of course see the advantages in that. You provide something familiar to many people and do not need to explain everything. That also saves book space as you do not need to spell out every nuance of a specific country and can just point to its historic reference (or more likely players will figure it out themselves in many cases). Although it leaves some things in the open as the familiarity about certain countries can vary between individuals, including players, DMs and designer.

Another disadvantage I see it that it gets stale at some point. There is always the Viking country, the China country, various European countries, etc. all populated with monsters from the respective mythologies and people with the corresponding culture and ethnicity.

So what is your opinion on this? Do you prefer to have familiar historic inspired countries in your setting or do you like to have more fantastic countries or at least countries that heavily deviate from their historic base?

The crux of the problem is one of respectful adaptation and in-depth knowledge. Most people don't seem to care enough to really research an area and to dig into the local politics, history, etc enough to present things in a respectful manner. It's typically surface stereotypes only. Even things supposedly "familiar" to most gamers, like vikings. It's always dirty northmen coming to raid and rape, never farmers or settlers or merchants or traders or mercenaries...always raiders. Typically depicted as filthy despite them historically being very hygienic and clean...compared to other Europeans of the time.

This only gets worse when dealing with non-European cultures. The tropes take over and most nuance is lost.

Thankfully there are more and more creatives of color and from non-European backgrounds who're producing gaming content. The recent Kickstarters for sourcebooks for South American (Boricubos) and Filipino based mythology, cultures, and lands (The Islands of Sina Una) are only two examples. See also the recent Al-Qadim guide on DM's Guild.