Your WotC spending: More on Minis or Books?

[Fauxargent]

Never bought a WotC mini - never will.

Spend a fortune on metal miniatures tho.

 

[Pants]

Go check out Iron Kingdoms Warmachine, Privateer Press' mini game...

Superbly awesome miniatures BTW. Waaaay too expensive for my blood though

 

[ledded]

A lot of us aren't sneering, though. We're just saying the game shouldn't require them.

It doesn't matter that D&D developed from miniatures combat. Lots of modern medicines developed from mold. Doesn't mean I want mold in my bathroom cabinet.

Okay, that came out a little more insulting than I meant it, but the point is, the fact that minis came first does not in any way, shape, or form mean D&D still must have them. I don't sneer at people who want to use minis, but why shouldn't the game present equal options for those who don't? It used to, after all.

I understand your point, but while I truly love using miniatures, terrain, and large expansive setups in our games. I don't think they are necessary to play the game at all. Sure, they may make it easier, but I dont see why you cant play without them.

Remember that if you have a problem with a rule in the book that you feel cant be accomodated without using miniatures/counters/pennies/etc, then you are completely free to drop it. The rules are truly guidelines anyway, the game is yours and you can play it any way you darn well choose.

I've played it both ways, and a couple guys in my group recently ran a mini-less d20 Modern game for several non-gaming friends to introduce them to gaming. They all had a great time and the GM was able to easily compensate for the lack of minis, counters, or visual representation whatsoever.

So while D&D developing from a miniatures game doesnt *have* to mean that the game requires or is even really enhanced by them for you, it still does have a good bit of historical and developmental relevance, just as the mold in your cabinet may have relevance to modern medicine.

Heck, with that comparison in mind, let's forget the whole "save the rain forests thing"... we already have plenty of modern medicine, how is missing out on a few undiscovered ones relevant to progress, baby!

 

[The_Gneech]

A lot of us aren't sneering, though. We're just saying the game shouldn't require them.

It doesn't matter that D&D developed from miniatures combat. Lots of modern medicines developed from mold. Doesn't mean I want mold in my bathroom cabinet.

Okay, that came out a little more insulting than I meant it, but the point is, the fact that minis came first does not in any way, shape, or form mean D&D still must have them. I don't sneer at people who want to use minis, but why shouldn't the game present equal options for those who don't? It used to, after all.

Well you've got a point there; every miniature on the market comes out of a mold.

Er, no, wait, I'm confused.

Seriously tho, I've got no beef with people who don't use mini's, either; I was among their number once myself and when the occasion calls for it, I still am. When confined to a hotel room that had no table, I ran a 3.5 one-shot with no mat or minis, and it went well enough. All you really need for a good game is a room and the right kind of people. (Heck, even the room is optional.)

That being said, a lot of people who don't use minis aren't sneering, true: they and I have no argument. But a lot of people who don't use them do sneer, and generally to the tune of "roleplaying stops when the fighting starts." It may be that there are groups who stop roleplaying the moment the mat and minis come out; but I have never seen it. In my group, the guy playing the big dumb fighter plays him just as big and dumb on the mat as he would be in narrative; the gal playing the wily rogue plays her just as wily on the mat as she would in narrative; the cynical archer is just as cynical, and the destructive wizard is just as destructive.

What it boils down to is that it's not the use or not-use of minis I object to; I guess in the final analysis, it's just the sneering. See also Barsoomcore's quote in my sig...

-TG

 

[Psion]

That being said, a lot of people who don't use minis aren't sneering,

I, on the other hand, do use minis but am sneering.

I think minis are great tools for D&D. I just don't think that their role as a tool should be expanded into parts of the game where imagination works better.

In case you were wondering, yes, this is me complaining about cover and concealment rules again and fearing more of the same.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Remember that if you have a problem with a rule in the book that you feel cant be accomodated without using miniatures/counters/pennies/etc, then you are completely free to drop it. The rules are truly guidelines anyway, the game is yours and you can play it any way you darn well choose.

Oh, I know. And I do indeed drop (or at least tweak) such rules, frequently.

My ultimate point, though--and the one that I'll make until I'm either blue from lack of breath, or black and blue from people getting sick of it all and beating the snot out of me --is that I shouldn't have to drop or tweak rules. I played Basic, 1E, and 2E, and I never once felt there were parts of the game I couldn't use if I wasn't using minis. With 3E, however, I can't make use of the whole game without them--and the fact that I can still play it that way doesn't change the fact that I believe I shouldn't have to.

(Put another way: Give a newbie to roleplaying any of the previous editions. He may have trouble understanding some of the more arcane rules, but odds are he won't get the impression he must play with miniatures. Now give a newbie 3.5. I guarantee you the notion that the game can be played without minis will never even occur to the vast majority of them; heck the book actually says at one point that minis are required. That's my problem in a nutshell; not that the game can use minis, but that--as written--it implies that it must.)

I should point out--since it's been a while since I said it--that I still believe 3.5 is a superior game to all previous editions. The problems I do have with it should not be construed as meaning otherwise.

 

[Belen]

Well, we have already started seeing minis rules in the game, such as the swift action in the XPH. Peronally, I thought the whole point to the removal of partial actions was to make the combat/ action system easier to handle. Now they are adding new actions! Go figure!

Merric: I have spent a good deal on the minis because I cannot paint and they are a decent option for a non-painter. I have spent too much, perhaps....however, I am in 100% agreement with Monte. It seems that the newer books are more mini-oriented rather than less, even to the point of reprinting junk from the mini-handbook. I just get this even sense of doom.

Mouseferatu: I agree wholeheartedly. Heck, my group insists on using them. Although, I am sure that counters would be fine too, but use of a battlemap is a must at my table now and they never happened in the past.

Dave

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Well, we have already started seeing minis rules in the game, such as the swift action in the XPH. Peronally, I thought the whole point to the removal of partial actions was to make the combat/ action system easier to handle. Now they are adding new actions! Go figure!

Swift actions were already in the rules, just not named as such. Just because they were formally defined in the Minis handbook doesn't make them a "minis rule." After all, they were defined in the half of that book that didn't deal with the minis game.

It seems that the newer books are more mini-oriented rather than less, even to the point of reprinting junk from the mini-handbook. I just get this even sense of doom.

I think they made a mistake in releasing important rules additions in the Minis handbook, which a large number of people misunderstood and didn't realize that fully half of the book was RPG material. I think the reprinting of things like the Favored Soul in Complete Divine is trying to make up for the fact that many people might not have even looked at the minis HB.

 

[PoppaGunch]

I was one of those people who was dead set against minis, but when the players started abusing the rules for 3.0 then 3.5 I decided I had better start getting them. Besides I liked the way they looked. As for the bet swords (or in the case of the bone devil, the bent legs) a simple cup of hot water fixes that.
Anywho, I just recently filled out my Archfiends (bought 40 boxes), harbinger (bought 30 boxes), Dragoneye (6 individual figs), and preordered Giants (48 boxes). The beauty of it? My wife payed for them all. Damn I love that woman. Heh

 

[Gez]

I haven't bought anything from anyone since the 3.5 (included).

I wanted to pick up some books (Draco, Exalted Deeds, maybe UA), but hadn't had the opportunity. And I haven't even seen a mini.

Given that I haven't had the opportunity to play or master D&D for even longer...