You're planning to turn me into a What?
- Thread starter Choon-Ma
- Start date
RigaMortus2
First Post
Gerion of Mercadia said:
What he means is, the player is going to get more use out of being a vampire (or using the powers of a vampire) than an NPC will.
If your character had dominate person at will (like a vampire does), how often over the career of your character, would you use it? I am betting an aweful lot. Where as an NPC would really only "use" the ability during encounters, probably against the PCs.
So, since a PC will get more mileage out of being a vampire than an NPC would, they pay for it in LA.
IcyCool
First Post
Gerion of Mercadia said:
It's pretty much the definition of LA, and it doesn't really tie into CR at all.
Regeneration is a neat ability for a Troll "NPC" that makes it kind of hard to kill. Regeneration on a character makes him pretty much immune to death. Thus, it is worth far more to the PC, than it is to the NPC. That's what LA represents. It doesn't work perfectly.
Fieari
Explorer
The LA describing abilities more useful to a player than to a monster isn't really true, according to some research, and by some I mean Upper_Krust's. That's not to say that LA isn't important, it just says that CR does not really equal ECL in any context, given the respective definitions of CR and ECL (excluding the CR=Class Levels thing). As a general rule, CR=2/3 ECL, except for dragons, where CR=1/2 ECL in order to deliberately make them stronger. This does not always hold true, but it usually does.
Calculating things out, however, for vampires in specifically, you get the following
According to this, the official LA of +8 probably makes it slightly too weak, but the additional +1 premium helps discourage people from picking one.
Calculating things out, however, for vampires in specifically, you get the following
Upper Krust's ECL Document v.5 said:
According to this, the official LA of +8 probably makes it slightly too weak, but the additional +1 premium helps discourage people from picking one.
Gerion of Mercadia
First Post
If you aren't using all of your monster's abilities - are you playing the monster to its full potential?
If the Vampire hasn't created a few spawn minions and charmed 1 or 2 of the locals to do his bidding - are you playing the vampire?
The CR adjustment adjusts for the VAMPIRE and the xp it awards, not the minions.
Using the math of Upper_Krust ... there is about 1.5 of this ECL directly tied to that factor alone.
Also, I don't see a couple of disadvantages included in the math - specifically being "coffin bound" and "unable to cross running water"
If the Vampire hasn't created a few spawn minions and charmed 1 or 2 of the locals to do his bidding - are you playing the vampire?
The CR adjustment adjusts for the VAMPIRE and the xp it awards, not the minions.
Using the math of Upper_Krust ... there is about 1.5 of this ECL directly tied to that factor alone.
Also, I don't see a couple of disadvantages included in the math - specifically being "coffin bound" and "unable to cross running water"
James McMurray
First Post
CR doesn't include most minions*, even those gained through domination. Those guys have their own CRs, all of which combine to form the ECL for the encounter.
* The only minions that are included in CR that I canthink of are class abilities like familiars and animal companions. There are probably others though.
* The only minions that are included in CR that I canthink of are class abilities like familiars and animal companions. There are probably others though.
Gerion of Mercadia
First Post
Ok, so the Player Character turned Vampire has his ability to magically get NPC's to fight alongside Him is taxed but the NPC's isn't...
What I am seeing is that if a PC decides to "take on" a Vampire template - or gets one imposed on Him, he gets a ECL adjustment of somewhere between 2 and 8, and has to "make up" the experience before he can level again.
Oh, BTW - regeneration is nice, but once you take enough subdual damage to KO your tail end you start taking lethal damage - not to mention the fact you are still vulnerable to being CDG IIRC
What I am seeing is that if a PC decides to "take on" a Vampire template - or gets one imposed on Him, he gets a ECL adjustment of somewhere between 2 and 8, and has to "make up" the experience before he can level again.
Oh, BTW - regeneration is nice, but once you take enough subdual damage to KO your tail end you start taking lethal damage - not to mention the fact you are still vulnerable to being CDG IIRC
James McMurray
First Post
The NPC's ability isn't taxed because it doesn't matter. If the DM wants two enemies to team up, they'll do it. A vampire;s dominate person ability merely gives an easy excuse for it to happen. The only time Dominate Person comes into play in a meaningful manner is inside an encounter when it's used against the party (directly or indirectly). Since a PC vampire has vastly more encounters with opponents than an NPC vampire has encounters with PCs, the ability gets weighted more when given to a PC.
Without a house rule, he gets an ECL of 8 on the nose. With a house rule he gets an ECL of whatever the GM decides is appropriate.
You do not recall correctly. 4,000 damage from a sword to a regenerator is 4,000 nonlethal damage unless that sword overcomes the limitations of the creature's regeneration. The only way you can CDG a regenerator is if the attack deals damage that overcomes the regeneration.
Without a house rule, he gets an ECL of 8 on the nose. With a house rule he gets an ECL of whatever the GM decides is appropriate.
You do not recall correctly. 4,000 damage from a sword to a regenerator is 4,000 nonlethal damage unless that sword overcomes the limitations of the creature's regeneration. The only way you can CDG a regenerator is if the attack deals damage that overcomes the regeneration.
shilsen
Adventurer
Gerion of Mercadia said:
No, you don't. You may have encountered someone using this as a house rule. You can do 2000 pts of damage to a troll, and as long as none of it is acid or fire damage, it's all still nonlethal damage.
Only if the CDG is done with an attack that does lethal damage.
Not that any of the above matters with vampires, of course, since vampires have fast healing, not regeneration.
James McMurray
First Post
Dude, you were so totally p0wned by my awesome speed!
Although, you post was made in between the time I clicked submit and the page refreshed, so I guess it might not have been "totally."
Although, you post was made in between the time I clicked submit and the page refreshed, so I guess it might not have been "totally."
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