You're planning to turn me into a What?

[IcyCool]

A 5th level human vampire with the template in the MM is CR 7. That would lead you to believe that it is the equivalent of a 7th level character.

This mantra will probably help you. "CR has nothing to do with ECL."

On the other hand, ECL, in the absence of a previous CR calculation, can be used to ballpark the CR of said critter. It's sort of a "all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares." (ECL being the square, and CR being the rectangle in this case).

So, if there didn't exist a previous way to calculate a Vampire-templated creature's CR, then you would use it's ECL as an estimate (note that using a character's ECL as their CR generally results in an underpowered CR challenge. The sole exception that I've seen involves using the NPC classes - a level 2 warrior is probably a little stronger CR 1 than a level 1 fighter).

You are saying that it isn't, it is a 13th level character. I don't get it. I read the linked "savage species" articles... but what I don't understand is that if you do things that way... are those creatures gaining hit dice for each of those levels as well?

No, they are not gaining Hit Dice (That's the penalty of LA). But with the savage progressions, you don't have to take all of the "creature levels" right away (or even at all). You could take only the first level, and then only take class levels after that. You wouldn't have all of the juicy, game imbalancing powers of the vampire, but you also wouldn't have the heavy LA tax either.

 

[James McMurray]

I thought that once you started a savage progression you had to finish it. Is that a house rule I'm remembering as RAW?

 

[IcyCool]

I thought that once you started a savage progression you had to finish it. Is that a house rule I'm remembering as RAW?

Possibly. I thought the same thing, but as has been pointed out to me many times, nothing says you have to (and the savage progression articles I think explicity state that you don't have to).

 

[James McMurray]

That's weird. How does one decide to stop becoming a vampire, lich, or ogre? It seems like an open invitation to munckinland to me.

 

[IcyCool]

That's weird. How does one decide to stop becoming a vampire, lich, or ogre? It seems like an open invitation to munckinland to me.

That's pretty much why I don't allow it. But for some folks, I suppose it works.

 

[irdeggman]

You are saying that it isn't, it is a 13th level character. I don't get it. I read the linked "savage species" articles... but what I don't understand is that if you do things that way... are those creatures gaining hit dice for each of those levels as well?

The Savage Progressions article does not grant hit dice per level, unless so specified.

The article allows a character to stop at any time - effectively making them a "lesser" version of the "final" product.

The article was designed to cover LA (with little or no racial hit dice) templates.

Savage Species did a pretty decent job of covering the ones with more racial hit dice and a character was forced to take all of the levels.

 

[irdeggman]

That's weird. How does one decide to stop becoming a vampire, lich, or ogre? It seems like an open invitation to munckinland to me.

Because you are effectively a "lesser" version and not a "full" one.

It is in no way a perfect system but the game mechanics can so cripple someone who tries to just insert something like a vampire template "all of a sudden" to make the game totally out of balance.

As has been pointed out if granting the template all at once - suddenly 1 character has just advanced 8 levels and would dwarf all of the other PCs.

Think how you would feel if everyone else in your party suddenly got 8 levels and you didn't - not very fair.

Now using the savage progressions system the munchkinisms are pretty well limited. You don't get much per level so the benefits are really scaled down - and you don't get any hit dice, so there is an inherent balancing factor there.

 

[James McMurray]

If the levels by themselves suck I could see it, but I have nightmarish visions of people dipping a couple levels into some random monster class to munch out.

IMC someone gaining the Vampire template would almost immediately be followed by "dude, total suckage!" because they know there's no way it would come without strings.

 

[shilsen]

IMC someone gaining the Vampire template would almost immediately be followed by "dude, total suckage!" because they know there's no way it would come without strings.

Really bad pun, man!

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

yeah - and that +8 LA sounds like a whole heck of a lot of "stringed suckage". Continuing the pun - yep.

It sounds like what happens if you manage to acquire a template with any kind of LA as a PC you can forget about leveling for darn near forever. The Savage Species articles are one of those "I dunno" factors. I'm going to have to look over some serious house rules on doing this, because these templates were designed for DM use... never PC.