Yuan Ti?

[jasamcarl]

The title of the article implies that it's about yuan-ti. It's not really, though, is it? It's about templates.

Apparently I'm making an irrational complaint. Well, no, I'm not. I'm not actually making a complaint at all - like it has been pointed out, this is a free text. I haven't paid for it or otherwise invested anything other than a brief moment of time in reading it. I don't feel cheated or ripped off. I just feel that they could do something much better with it rather than, yet again, a gallery of templated monsters. There's very little about the yuan-ti themselves in it, and the backgrounds for the actual characters portrayed tend towards the extremely shallow and undeveloped end. As I said before, it's not worthwhile reading for me. *shrug*

You say that fluff is more easy than mechanics - perhaps, but that's not what I'm talking about here. They aren't giving use new mechanics. They're just using pre-existing ones to once again say 'ooh, look what we've done with some templates.' That takes even less time than fluff. Not to mention that what I was suggesting, along the lines of tactics and concepts, are not necessarily fluff, but methods of applying the mechanics.

As for the meaning of the word 'elite', it has exactly the same meaning in D&D as it does anywhere else.

The article is about the creatures in that it uses their mechanics. I would ask you to go to either the DMG or MM and look up the word 'Elite'. It has a specific mechanical definition which amounts to creatures with the elite ability score array which may or may not have class level and uses a maximum first hit die. Please know what you are talking about before responding. The article takes Yuan-ti mechanics and advances them in a few directions.

And, even though everything they presented is consistent with the rules, applying the rules still takes more time than coming up with a basic plothook and winging the details with the players (usually the best and most realistic strategy).

Now, you want an article of tactics..i'd be all for that, despite the fact that their application would be limited by different party compositions, circumstances, etc. This makes tactics best placed in a module, but again, that is beside the point.

I will reiterate; the point is that THE ARTICLE DOES EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS IT WILL DO. If you want a column on tactics, suggest a column of tactics and make your case on its merits. Don't make an (again) irrational complaint about an article which several people have already testified is actually a timesavor.

 

[jasamcarl]

Well, I guess I should clarify for you.

I was talking about the need for templates on every single character. Do those characters remain Yuan Ti? Is Frankenstien a human? He is a half golem if I ever heard of one. The collection of stats seems less an article on Yuan Ti and more an article on half bred monsters.

I like stated creatures on the web site, they are time savers. I went looking for some Yuan Ti and I did not find any. Why does "Elite" = Must have a template? Why can't it mean 3 levels in ranger? or 8 levels in druid? Is there a rule that I am unaware that requires templates for the designator "Elite"? If so, then I was unaware and can see how my question is construed as a "dumb complaint," if there is no such rule then I re-iterate the question why is everything half bred. There is more genetic engineering going on in fantasy D&D than in RIFTs and the Star Trek eugenics war combined to crank out the number of half breed monsters seen around these parts lately.

Where are all of these colleges of magical genetic crossbreeding? There must be some form of unified experimentation since it seems that a huge percentage of creatures are no longer pure breed strains.

If there are no vast networks of magical genetic engineers - Did the Dragon mate with the T-Rex or vice versa? Was it consentual? Did anyone press charges?

Monster mayham....now there I expect templates galore and sometimes they are even good. I am just curious to know when the trend started that requires everything to have a template and if other people find it as plain dumb as I do?

PS - I like free stuff. Those who read the initial post will find that it is about the use of templates. Yes, you can use levels and still be a stock Yuan Ti (as in STOCK not changed into something else).

And if I want to make a dumb complaint....more power to me. Try a better responce than "What a dumb complaint." It may not be something that you find bothersome but by all means your personal tastes are not the end all be all of D&D fashion.

This is a more reasonable argument. You seem to understand the article's intent, but dislike the execution. Fair enough..i like templates, and many of my boss monsters will have them. There is added value in this instance because most of the templates aren't core, but otherwise i would say its takes more time to write out the a conveniently complete templated monster stat block than one with levels. Its not about implying that every monster in your campaign is templated, but about meeting the mundane demands of readers who want something they don't already have; they already have basic creatures, and leveling basic creatures is comparitivly easy.

And please, i've explained why this was a 'dumb complaint'...read further down the thread.

 

[Carnifex]

The article is about the creatures in that it uses their mechanics. I would ask you to go to either the DMG or MM and look up the word 'Elite'. It has a specific mechanical definition which amounts to creatures with the elite ability score array which may or may not have class level and uses a maximum first hit die. Please know what you are talking about before responding. The article takes Yuan-ti mechanics and advances them in a few directions.

And, even though everything they presented is consistent with the rules, applying the rules still takes more time than coming up with a basic plothook and winging the details with the players (usually the best and most realistic strategy).

Now, you want an article of tactics..i'd be all for that, despite the fact that their application would be limited by different party compositions, circumstances, etc. This makes tactics best placed in a module, but again, that is beside the point.

I will reiterate; the point is that THE ARTICLE DOES EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS IT WILL DO. If you want a column on tactics, suggest a column of tactics and make your case on its merits. Don't make an (again) irrational complaint about an article which several people have already testified is actually a timesavor.

I'm certainly not making an 'irrational complaint' by saying that, as is, the Elite Opponents column is not very useful to me. It says it's attempting to turn the enemies into 'memorable foes', which I don't think it does a very good job of achieving. And from this thread, there are others that agree with me, as well.

And as to your comment that I should know what I'm talking about, the word 'elite' in D&D doesn't just refer to an elite stat array. It also refers to other meanings of elite. If I say 'elite stat array', that's what I mean. If I say 'elite' it can mean a lot of things. If a piece of text in a D&D product says, for example, 'the palace is staffed with the Dracoverr, known as elite warriors,' this doesn't mean they all have an elite stat array. The column doesn't even mention the elite stat array as being a feature of the creatures within - one of the possibilities it gives for making an 'elite opponent' is to advance it with increased hit dice, which in no way involves the elite stat array. So less of the snide comments about 'knowing what you're talking about', please.

The article does do much what it says it will do in the introduction to it, except I'm saying that I don't find it to really achieve the side of things where it makes the subject into an interesting or memorable foe. My opinion is that it's not achieving anything particularly useful. Or am I not allowed to think this, as it's apparently an 'irrational complaint'?

 

[jasamcarl]

I'm certainly not making an 'irrational complaint' by saying that, as is, the Elite Opponents column is not very useful to me. It says it's attempting to turn the enemies into 'memorable foes', which I don't think it does a very good job of achieving. And from this thread, there are others that agree with me, as well.

And as to your comment that I should know what I'm talking about, the word 'elite' in D&D doesn't just refer to an elite stat array. It also refers to other meanings of elite. If I say 'elite stat array', that's what I mean. If I say 'elite' it can mean a lot of things. If a piece of text in a D&D product says, for example, 'the palace is staffed with the Dracoverr, known as elite warriors,' this doesn't mean they all have an elite stat array. The column doesn't even mention the elite stat array as being a feature of the creatures within - one of the possibilities it gives for making an 'elite opponent' is to advance it with increased hit dice, which in no way involves the elite stat array. So less of the snide comments about 'knowing what you're talking about', please.

The article does do much what it says it will do in the introduction to it, except I'm saying that I don't find it to really achieve the side of things where it makes the subject into an interesting or memorable foe. My opinion is that it's not achieving anything particularly useful. Or am I not allowed to think this, as it's apparently an 'irrational complaint'?

I won't quibble on the elite issue other than to say the title of column is suppossed to draw on your knowledge of the rules. And the rules definition of elite goes beyond the ability scores as i've said above. All classed monsters are by definition 'elite' as per the rules for advancing monsters in the MM. I do know what i'm talking about. You apparently didn't get the title's inside reference. I'm sorry about that.

And the article makes clear its intent, which is that advancing monsters is a method for creating unique and interesting foes. The article handles the part that it could do at all adequatly by statting the mechanically unique creatures; the rp execution will always be up to the dm and players. So, I, as an adequate dm, could take what they gave me and make it memorable. With limits on time, i might otherwise throw something at my party that was more 'stock'. The article gave me those tools. It's really that simple.

 

[Carnifex]

I won't quibble on the elite issue other than to say the title of column is suppossed to draw on your knowledge of the rules. And the rules definition of elite goes beyond the ability scores as i've said above. All classed monsters are by definition 'elite' as per the rules for advancing monsters in the MM. I do know what i'm talking about.

Let me point out this part of the SRD:

ABILITY SCORE ARRAYS

Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.

There is no part of that which defines that any classed monster, any templated monster, or an advanced hit die monster has an elite array. There are 'often have' and 'usually', and these also apply to the nonelite array. Saying that all classed monsters are by definition 'elite' is simply incorrect - its an option they suggest with classed creatures, right alongside giving them a 'nonelite' array.

 

[Psion]

There is no part of that which defines that any classed monster, any templated monster, or an advanced hit die monster has an elite array.

I don't have the book handy, but look in the part in the back about advancing monsters. It specifically says that it is assumed that monsters with NPC classes have the nonelite array and monsters with PC classes use the elite array.

 

[jasamcarl]

Let me point out this part of the SRD:

ABILITY SCORE ARRAYS

Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.

There is no part of that which defines that any classed monster, any templated monster, or an advanced hit die monster has an elite array. There are 'often have' and 'usually', and these also apply to the nonelite array. Saying that all classed monsters are by definition 'elite' is simply incorrect - its an option they suggest with classed creatures, right alongside giving them a 'nonelite' array.

Please not I was not referring to templated or advanced monsters, but those with classes (though i should have specificied PC classes). Now note how almost all the Elite entries do have pc classes. Now look in the back of the MM and be enlightened.

 

[Psion]

Now note how almost all the Elite entries do have pc classes. Now look in the back of the MM and be enlightened.

I.E., what I just said, but more smarmy.

Sink a few ranks into diplomacy.

 

[Carnifex]

Please not I was not referring to templated or advanced monsters, but those with classes (though i should have specificied PC classes). Now note how almost all the Elite entries do have pc classes. Now look in the back of the MM and be enlightened.

There's one problem with specifying it to just creatures with classes, and that is that the Elite Opponents column isn't about just classes.

"Through the addition of class levels or templates, or even via simple HD advancement..."

So there is no particular connection between the 'elite array' - note that this is different from having any game term assigned to the phrase 'elite' - and the nature of the creatures in the column itself. I seriously doubt your assertion that the title of the column is a play on words to do with the elite array - I think it's referring to the more general term of elite. Now, if you can come up with some proof that they were referring to the 'elite array' in the title, I'd happily acquiesce to that, but I doubt that is the case.

 

[jasamcarl]

I.E., what I just said, but more smarmy.

Sink a few ranks into diplomacy.

Actually, its what i said two posts ago. He chose to ignore my qualifications and the MM reference. I thought I needed to spell out the logic because he was incapable to putting the pieces together.

And Psion, no throwing bricks when you live in a glass house.