D&D 5E Zard's Warlord Concept

[Zardnaar]

Zard, you not only have uncovered the way a warlord class could be built, you have shown us tinkerers that engineering any class from a warlock template is not only doable but probably fun.

I threw it togather quite quickly ad a concept. The noble had some decent ideas and I thought a few other builds were a bit off. The warlock template would also allow easy porting of 4E powers including dailies.

 

[Jester David]

Rallying cry starts out comparable to healing word doing an average of 4.5 compared to the spell's 5.5. It might be usable more often regarding at a short rest. Or not.
And it seems to roughly keep even by going up a d8 every other odd level rather than every odd level.

However, once you can use it 3+ times per short rest it gets a little crazy. At 5 per short rest you might be able to fire off 10 heals each doing 2d8 for an average healing of 90 points compared to a 9th level cleric who can only heal approx 49 points if they burn all their 5th and 4th level spells. The cleric only really catches up if they burn all their 3rd level spells.
So while the cleric is stuck to casting as a 4th level character for the day, the warlord has his 5 or so superiority dice (10 since there'd be a short rest).
And the warlord gets even better at level 11 when they can heal two allies at once and get 3 dice. (As much as 270 points of healing, which is more than an 11th level cleric also rocking heal which is a touch spell).

This isn't so much the warlord as a healer class. Especially since ability scores aside, all its class features are based around healing. Especially since it's a non-optional part of the class, unlike the cleric or bard who might choose an alternate path that doesn't include any healing.

This is of course assuming the warlord, a warlock, a rogue or fighter, and another class or two without daily powers team up. And instead of resting overnight ever they just take a couple short rests and adventure 24-7.

 

[Zardnaar]

Rallying cry starts out comparable to healing word doing an average of 4.5 compared to the spell's 5.5. It might be usable more often regarding at a short rest. Or not.
And it seems to roughly keep even by going up a d8 every other odd level rather than every odd level.

However, once you can use it 3+ times per short rest it gets a little crazy. At 5 per short rest you might be able to fire off 10 heals each doing 2d8 for an average healing of 90 points compared to a 9th level cleric who can only heal approx 49 points if they burn all their 5th and 4th level spells. The cleric only really catches up if they burn all their 3rd level spells.
So while the cleric is stuck to casting as a 4th level character for the day, the warlord has his 5 or so superiority dice (10 since there'd be a short rest).
And the warlord gets even better at level 11 when they can heal two allies at once and get 3 dice. (As much as 270 points of healing, which is more than an 11th level cleric also rocking heal which is a touch spell).

This isn't so much the warlord as a healer class. Especially since ability scores aside, all its class features are based around healing. Especially since it's a non-optional part of the class, unlike the cleric or bard who might choose an alternate path that doesn't include any healing.

This is of course assuming the warlord, a warlock, a rogue or fighter, and another class or two without daily powers team up. And instead of resting overnight ever they just take a couple short rests and adventure 24-7.

I went with the assumption of 2 short rests per day.

Warlord can heal 3d8 healing vs a clerics 2d8+6 (16 wis) 13.5 vs 15. Cleric wins and has flexibility. At level 2 cleric wins more and level 3 the cleric can cast Prayer of Healing. The Warlord can bonus action heal though but the cleric gets other stuff as well. Life Clerics of course beat the warlord hands down.

The Warlord also doesn't get domain spells or spells like hold person. The warlord might be marginally better at in combat healing than the cleric I suppose. Right now I am not to concerned, but if the numbers are to lop sided Rallying Cry might need to go to 1d6 or you get less of them at higher level. I'm not worried if rallying cry is better than healing word but if it overshadows other cleric healing options (which the warlord lacks) then we might have a problem.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The Warlord can bonus action heal though but the cleric gets other stuff as well.

The Cleric has a bonus-action healing spell.

So, you're using the Warlock's short-rest spell casting as a template? How do you think CS dice stack up to spell slots? What are these exploits going to be like to stack up to that resource model?

 

[Zardnaar]

The Cleric has a bonus-action healing spell.

So, you're using the Warlock's short-rest spell casting as a template? How do you think CS dice stack up to spell slots? What are these exploits going to be like to stack up to that resource model?

I have seen the BM fighter in action and I think the dice are quite good and they refresh on short rests.

Spellcasters or at least spell slots are not all that and they are beaten by martials in terms of damage. I do not think wizards are that good anymore and most clerisc do not excite me either.

Bards and Sorcerers I suspect are now the pwer spellcasters of 5E. This is because engancing martial types in combat seems to be more powerful a lot of the time than casting a real spell except perhaps at the highest levels.

A simple foresight spell on a sharpshooter or gwf martial type is better for dpr than casting another spell. Aid at lower levels is another example twinned haste/greater invisability is another example.

One doesn't need exploits as powerful as spells if powerful class features recharge on short rests and my warlird is proficient with con saves and armor which no spellcaster gets. And they get to heal as well.

Best buffer in the game right now is the favored soul (life) sorcerer. The battlemaster fighter is the best overall fighter and its not the weakedt class either.

Thats ibe probkem I have had with the warlord. Getting the right level of support vs healing and combat ability. Clerics for example are not that good at combat- no combat style or multiple attacks.

 

[Tony Vargas]

One doesn't need exploits as powerful as spells if powerful class features recharge on short rests and my warlird is proficient with con saves and armor which no spellcaster gets. And they get to heal as well.

You are using the Warlock as a template, and it's spells do re-charge on a short rest, so there'd seem to be a rough equivalency, there. There's also another factor on top of lagging power, versatility - spells do a wide range of things, and there are a lot of 'em.

Thats ibe probkem I have had with the warlord. Getting the right level of support vs healing and combat ability. Clerics for example are not that good at combat- no combat style or multiple attacks.

How good you are at combat is almost binary. Either you're good like a Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter &c, or you're not going to be doing it much. The Warlord could end up being active in combat mainly to activate riders - assuming your exploits work like maneuvers - exactly how 'good' he is not mattering too much. Or, you could throw in a few exploits that boost personal combat ability, so he could shine for a round or two, here or there, if designed to do so.

 

[Jester David]

Response to the pre-edit

I have thought about this a lot but have not crunched out the exact numebrs. The warlord doesn't get spells like Prayer of Healing though and the Mass Cure Spells clerics get.

Crunching the numbers should be one of the first things done. Thankfully, the numbers should be pretty easy.
The battlemaster dice are equal to 1/3rd of casting (as it replaces eldritch knight). So assuming the class gets few other abilities the warlord should heal comparative to a cleric using 1/3rd of their spells.
Another important factor is that the cleric should just be the best at healing. Period. No class should compare with a life cleric going full healer. That's the bar and the warlord shouldn't be able to cross it. Not anymore than another class should match the rogue at sneaking or stealing.

Mass healing word reduces the healing from 3d5+Wis to 1d4+Wis to up to six targets. A comparative warlord ability might spread their healing dice out, so they give each person they want to heal a certain amount of dice. Which fits the 5e design of simple mechanics that are easy to manage at the table.

Also the cleric doesn't have to heal the spell slots could be used for other things.

Which would be one of my big complaints over this build. Most of it is entirely focused on healing. It makes the warlord's schtick healing. It becomes the healer class, not the class that grants attacks or lets allies move.
If the cleric and bard (and likely the artificer) can choose to heal or not, then isn't the warlord entitled to the same flexibility?

If designing I'd double down on maneuvers (which should be called maneuvers and not exploits). The warlord should be the maneuver class. More maneuvers known, more dice, and larger dice. Again, use the 1/3rd caster level as the ballpark. Either make the warlord a 1/2 maneuver class or full maneuver class.
Give the warlord some flexibility. When they get up to a d10 for maneuver dice let them do two maneuvers in a round (but not in the same attack) using 2d4. Maybe some greater maneuvers that let you use two or three dice.

Rallying cry is neat but could have different powers as well. Picking a cry could be an interesting build option. So not all cries heal. Some could give allies temporary hp every round (like heroism) or let them move farther or deal more damage.

I went with the assumption of 2 short rests per day.

Warlord can heal 3d8 healing vs a clerics 2d8+6 (16 wis) 13.5 vs 15. Cleric wins and has flexibility. At level 2 cleric wins more and level 3 the cleric can cast Prayer of Healing. The Warlord can bonus action heal though but the cleric gets other stuff as well. Life Clerics of course beat the warlord hands down.

The Warlord also doesn't get domain spells or spells like hold person. The warlord might be marginally better at in combat healing than the cleric I suppose. Right now I am not to concerned, but if the numbers are to lop sided Rallying Cry might need to go to 1d6 or you get less of them at higher level. I'm not worried if rallying cry is better than healing word but if it overshadows other cleric healing options (which the warlord lacks) then we might have a problem.

I'll read this and reply more later, but I think I summarize my position above.

 

[Zardnaar]

Its not fair though to compare my warlord to the battlemaster fighter. Sure its better in some ways but it has sacrificed multiple attacks and things like action surge.

I posted an example above based on 2 short rests and clerics still seem better at healing and get to do other stuff. Life clerics blows my warlord out of the water in terms of healing. My healung rate can alao be adjusted diwn and tge best healers in the fame are MC life clerics.

Tony Vargas. I did include some ideas for exploits above and the warlock does get some daily ones. The warlord gets better saves, weapons and armor over the warlock. Every warlord also gets superiority dice which combined with weapons are armor are spell replacements. No reason why some of the exploits can't recharge after short rests or long rests that design was intentional for a modular warlord.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I did include some ideas for exploits above and the warlock does get sone daily ones. The warlord gets better saves, weapons and armor over the warlock.

Sure, so does the Cleric, but it doesn't exactly sacrifice spell power for it.

Every warlord also gets superiority dice which combined with weapons are armor are spell replacements.

That's what I thought, so the question of how do they stack up compared to spells is inevitable.

No reason why some of the exloits can't recharge after short rests or long rests that design was intentional for a modular warlord.

How does that mesh with CS dice?

Crunching the numbers should be one of the first things done. Thankfully, the numbers should be pretty easy. The battlemaster dice are equal to 1/3rd of casting (as it replaces eldritch knight). So assuming the class gets few other abilities the warlord should heal comparative to a cleric using 1/3rd of their spells.

Its not fair thougj to compare my warlord to thw battlemaster fighter. Sure its better in sime ways but it has sacrificed multiple attacks and things like action surge.

To paraphrase the old saying: all's fair in hate & War(lords). ;P

Seriously, though, the logic of reasoning from 1/3rd-caster-equivalent (because: Battlemaster) would lead to 3x the CS dice of the battlemaster: 6 at third (presumably 2-4 before that), going up to 12, maybe ~18 if optimized.

But, even that logic is questionable, since CS dice synergize with battlemaster multiple attacks.

Since you based it on the Warlock, maybe how much healing could a Warlock dish out using all it's slots over a standard 2-rest day if casting from the Cleric list?

Another important factor is that the cleric should just be the best at healing. Period. No class should compare with a life cleric going full healer.

We still haven't seen the sheer giant number that would be: Life Cleric, optimized for healing, optimally assigning all it's slots to maximize healing for a party.

Which would be one of my big complaints over this build. Most of it is entirely focused on healing. It makes the warlord's schtick healing. It becomes the healer class, not the class that grants attacks or lets allies move.
If the cleric and bard (and likely the artificer) can choose to heal or not, then isn't the warlord entitled to the same flexibility?

Uh.... what he said... ??? (JC: weren't you violently opposed to that idea in another thread?)

Z: You could move all the rallying stuff under exploits maneuvers...

If designing I'd double down on maneuvers (which should be called maneuvers and not exploits).

[sblock="just need to rant about WotC for a moment, nothing to see here"]As a general rule, I don't go and rant against WotC being somehow mean to it's fans, but there is one, little, cynical, disingenuous, trivial little thing they've been doing that has been annoying me since 4e was announced. Effing around with language to try to defuse valid criticism, by introducing key words used in that criticism into jargon. 3.5 caught a lot of flack for unintended synergies that could break the game, if they were 'exploited,' thus, they got called 'exploits.' They get ready to roll rev, and use 'exploit,' for martial maneuvers. 3.5 got played 'Core Only' a lot to avoid all those exploits - not martial maneuvers, but broken combos - so they start slapping 'Core Rule Book' on every other thing they publish and, to give it teeth, spread out classes that were core over a couple of those books. People complain there's too much 'errata,' so they take to calling errata 'updates.' Fans say they want the Warlord so they can play an "Inspiring Leader," and that phrase becomes a feat - and an out-of-place indie mechanic and a Bard feature /both/ get called 'Inspiration.' [/sblock] So, yeah, 'maneuvers,' please.

The warlord should be the maneuver class. More maneuvers known, more dice, and larger dice. Again, use the 1/3rd caster level as the ballpark. Either make the warlord a 1/2 maneuver class or full maneuver class.

If you're going to be 'the' maneuver class, probably all the way, so around 3x the Battlemaster maneuvers as a guide, but keeping in mind that it doesn't have Extra Attacks to synergize with them nor blow through them. Level- or tier- gating maneuvers would also make a lot of sense. The Battlemaster's maneuvers are essentially all 1st-level abilities (again, using the BM-EK equivalency).

Give the warlord some flexibility.

Y'know, I've double-checked just whom I'm quoting twice, now.

 

[Jester David]

Uh.... what he said... ??? (JC: weren't you violently opposed to that idea in another thread?)

I am. But I'm going to give feedback assuming Zard already knows my views or could read them elsewhere, and give constructive feedback to help someone make the best possible class, even if I personally dislike the result.