Zombie Minions are too weak

[unan oranis]

well barring that we're missing something from the core rules... ha... it looks like the zombie minions have been subjected to a formula that leaves them a bit shorthanded.

Doesn't seem like a crazy amount of xp difference so I say let 'er ride.

Just add a note to the adventurers handbook: zombies make the best killun'.

 

[Sojorn]

Unless its example of editing due to lack of space

but they wouldn't do that would they

As is players will see Zombies and say

"Woot bonus xp! Charge"

I really do hope there's mitigating circumstances on this encounter that I'm not aware of. Like a trap or environmental things that don't give XP because they're only dangerous in context of the zombies being around.

I will be equally disappointed if they're this obviously out of wack as written in the MM.

 

[Celebrim]

You do realize that by suggesting that the XP system is only valid for certain assumed combinations of monsters that you've pretty much toasted the whole system right there?

Of course, I don't think that is true that monsters were assigned different levels according to thier assumed support. I think this is just a simple error or oversight on the part of the designer.

It occurs to me that stamping minion status on a monster is going to matter much more if one of the things that matters about that monster is unusually high points or other defences, and conversely if you want to bury CR (or whatever it is called now) the best way to do that is stamp minion status on monsters notable for thier unusual fragility (but which are balanced in some other fashion).

It also occurs to me that the zombie minion is a great example of how advancing or altering monsters according to the rules doesn't always end up generating something balanced regardless of the system in question.

Lastly, I think we are going to see alot of mistakes along these lines. Exception based design means fewer standards, and less standardization is going to mean more things get designed without the implications really being thought out. I wonder if we are going to end up with some inadvertant MtG style combos.

 

[rincewind_supermage]

just a thought but since these are the minions they would apply the minion rule right so they would give alot less exp and be alot weaker but the minion level thing seems to be solely based on the basics like to hit and damage a zombie of any level is still a zombie with 1 hp as far a minions go i think its just they have the ability to hit and become a little harder to hit im sure if they were non minion zombies they would beat the goblins out on HP and that would balance it out.

eh shot in the dark and i don't have night vision

 

[gribble]

Lastly, I think we are going to see alot of mistakes along these lines. Exception based design means fewer standards, and less standardization is going to mean more things get designed without the implications really being thought out. I wonder if we are going to end up with some inadvertant MtG style combos.

I think this is the result of some "creating a minion" process in the MM, where a 3rd level non-minion zombie (3rd level due to high hp/atk/dmg) has been turned into a minion, and as a result has ended up screwy in terms of level/xp.

And I agree that this is something I think we were bound to see... I'd hoped not so soon as the first adventure though!

 

[Spatula]

It occurs to me that stamping minion status on a monster is going to matter much more if one of the things that matters about that monster is unusually high points or other defences, and conversely if you want to bury CR (or whatever it is called now) the best way to do that is stamp minion status on monsters notable for thier unusual fragility (but which are balanced in some other fashion).

This is a problem if minion is a template-style process (like putting a fire- and acid-resistance template on a troll in 3e is disproportionately good but the CR increase doesn't take that into account), but it's not clear that the zombie minion is the result of that. It's missing the regular zombie's grab ability (useful) and its necrotic resistance (not very useful against PCs, anyway). It's also a level higher, which is a little strange... But in theory, they were designed from the ground up and not the result of taking a 2nd level brute and turning it into a 3rd level minion.

Lastly, I think we are going to see alot of mistakes along these lines. Exception based design means fewer standards, and less standardization is going to mean more things get designed without the implications really being thought out. I wonder if we are going to end up with some inadvertant MtG style combos.

Well, probably as far as combos go, but I disagree about the standards thing. There's nothing preventing tight standards on a monster's numbers in the design framework (primarily, its hp, defenses, and damage output as a function of its level) and indeed I was hoping for just that; how the monster arrives at those values isn't really important. This zombie minion, though, is definitely poorly designed for its level and makes me think that the vaunted "4e math" is not really there. Which makes the encounter design tools potentially not any better than CR & EL, and that was what I was mainly looking forward to with the new edition. =\

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You do realize that by suggesting that the XP system is only valid for certain assumed combinations of monsters that you've pretty much toasted the whole system right there?

I haven't looked closely at the specific example, and I am willing to think that the XP/level is off.

But generally speaking, the XP system works best for certain combinations of monsters. If you put all artillery monsters in an in-door encounter, the encounter will be a lot easier then an encounter mixed with artilleries and soldiers. It is not that different from the CR system, either. We haven't had monster roles in 3E, but it was obvious that if you send a group of archers against a Fighter and a Cleric, they were in a world of hurt, while a small complement of melee warriors would change the situation.

Unfortunately, even 4E doesn't give us a general all-purpose way to determine appropriate encounter difficulty and rewards. It gives us a little more flexibility and a few extra pointers, which I'd count as an improvement, but there are still things the DM has to figure out on his own...

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

Zombie minions are great. I ran a game where I had an unnumbered horde of them attacking an inn. Can you imagine running a game in 3e with 20+ zombies at 1st level? I don't think so.

Yes, actually, and I've seen it done effectively with significantly more than that...

In fact, in the zombiegeddon in Sharn campaign, there were dozens of zombies at a point when there were *level 1 NPC classes* in the PC roster (due to a rather unique, low-powered, "organic" way of making PCs to bolster the unique flavor of the campaign), along with low-powered stats. Beat up the zombies good, they did. And the fights weren't held up by delays or anything.

 

[LowSpine]

Unless this has changed since DDXP, immobilized just stops your movement, your enemies don't get CA against you.

RESTRAINED
* You grant combat advantage.
* You're immobilized.
* You can't be forced to move by a pull, a push, or a slide.
* You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

 

[Dausuul]

You need more than 1 test case like this to make your point. For example, let's say I go minion crazy and against my 5 PCs I throw 20 zombie minions or 20 goblin cutters. The minions move in, and the wizard blasts a section of them an AOE before they attack. How much will the zombie's lower reflex defense hurt it then?

Reflex defense is the zombie's weak point, agreed--although even there, the zombie comes out essentially even with the goblin. On the other hand, the zombie comes out noticeably ahead on attacks that target Will, and way, way ahead on attacks that target Fort.

I still think the zombie is overall a slightly stronger combatant than the goblin, though not enough to justify the 2-level difference... unless there is an expectation that zombies will attack in total darkness or some such.