D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

Oofta · Jan 22, 2019

KarinsDad said:
Pointless?

Advantage with an ability check round after round after round is very potent. It's like an unlimited number of more powerful than a cantrip spells. And it's not like most PCs wouldn't get the feat at level 4 or higher where it doesn't take long for a melee PC to get two attacks per round.

Being prone also has disadvantage on attacks, so it defensively helps the PCs. Attack the foe, shove the foe, and if prone, move to some other part of the battlefield and the foe has a disadvantaged opportunity attack. And even at level 4, other melee PCs would still get advantage on melee attacks.

It is very very far from pointless. It is one of the nicest feats in the game for sword and board, even without getting every single melee attack when it works with advantage.

Standing doesn't cost anything if you don't have to move far. Being prone only grants advantage on attack if the attacker is within 5 feet, anyone further has disadvantage.

Why would my tank want to move away from the target? If I do, the bad guy stands up and either does a ranged attack, does a tactical retreat or just moves around me to get to the squishies now that I've removed all disincentives.

If I work at it hard enough I guess I could come up with a scenario and set of builds where it would make sense but you have to build the party around that particular niche. You have to make a lot of assumptions before it buys much. For the vast majority of combats and builds, it's virtually pointless.

Azzy · Jan 22, 2019

FrogReaver said:
If it’s in my game I’m allowing the the shove before your attacks. But I don’t belive there is any way to construe the rule as written to say that.

To take a bonus action you must have a bonus action you’re able to take. Shield master only grants a bonus action if you take the attack action. Therefore until you have taken the attack action you have no bonus action available to take.

No, the feat states "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action". It does not specify when, during your turn, that the Attack action must be taken. As long as you take an Attack action on your turn, it doesn't matter whether you use the bonus action before that Attack action or after it as there's no inherent stipulation that the Attack action must precede the bonus action.

KarinsDad · Jan 22, 2019

Oofta said:
Standing doesn't cost anything if you don't have to move far. Being prone only grants advantage on attack if the attacker is within 5 feet, anyone further has disadvantage.

Why would my tank want to move away from the target? If I do, the bad guy stands up and either does a ranged attack, does a tactical retreat or just moves around me to get to the squishies now that I've removed all disincentives.

If I work at it hard enough I guess I could come up with a scenario and set of builds where it would make sense but you have to build the party around that particular niche. You have to make a lot of assumptions before it buys much. For the vast majority of combats and builds, it's virtually pointless.

I often want a melee PC to move somewhere else.

The DM had a Gobliln attack the Fighter and a Bugbear attack the Wizard.

You bet I want the Fighter to move over to the Bugbear without most likely taking damage from the Goblin.

As for your ranged point, that point is the same regardless of how one rules the feat.

None of this has anything to do with niche builds. It has to do with interpretation of the feat.

KarinsDad · Jan 22, 2019

Azzy said:
No, the feat states "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action". It does not specify when, during your turn, that the Attack action must be taken. As long as you take an Attack action on your turn, it doesn't matter whether you use the bonus action before that Attack action or after it as there's no inherent stipulation that the Attack action must precede the bonus action.

I definitely understand your interpretation.

Coming from the programming world, If … then … indicates that if something is true now, then something else happens. Not if something is true in the future, then something else happens. I think most people don't parse sentences to the level that you did here, but I can see your semantic argument.

If you fall in the pit on your turn, then you can use a bonus action to cast feather fall. Most people wouldn't interpret this to mean that you could cast feather fall before falling into the pit.

Azzy · Jan 22, 2019

KarinsDad said:
I definitely understand your interpretation.

Coming from the programming world, If … then … indicates that if something is true now, then something else happens. Not if something is true in the future, then something else happens. I think most people don't parse sentences to the level that you did here, but I can see your semantic argument.

If you fall in the pit on your turn, then you can use a bonus action to cast feather fall. Most people wouldn't interpret this to mean that you could cast feather fall before falling into the pit.

Feather Fall is cast as a reaction, not a bonus action, and doesn't even have similar verbiage.

FrogReaver · Jan 23, 2019

Azzy said:
No, the feat states "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action". It does not specify when, during your turn, that the Attack action must be taken. As long as you take an Attack action on your turn, it doesn't matter whether you use the bonus action before that Attack action or after it as there's no inherent stipulation that the Attack action must precede the bonus action.

Let's try this again.

To take a bonus action you must have a bonus action you're able to take. Shield master only grants a bonus action if you take the attack action on your turn. If you haven't taken the attack action on your turn you don't have a bonus action available to take.

The argument isn't that you must take the bonus action in some specific order on your turn, it's that you don't even have a bonus action to take until you've taken the attack action.

FrogReaver · Jan 23, 2019

Azzy said:
Feather Fall is cast as a reaction, not a bonus action, and doesn't even have similar verbiage.

There wasn't a claim made that it was. You should seriously try to understanding what people are saying before you just discount everything on a whim.

FrogReaver · Jan 23, 2019

Oofta said:
No way to construe? Really? Because Mr Crawford interpreted it that way for roughly 4 years before changing his mind. The only people who rule that there has to be a sequence that I know do it because they saw the sage advice tweet or read about it on social media.

I agree you have to take the attack action on your turn if you take the bonus action assuming it's not some edge case where you can't complete your turn. Similar to how if you use a bonus action spell you can only cast a cantrip; sequence doesn't matter.

Feel free to rule differently at your table.

I've always thought the RAW meaning was the way it's been stated now despite the original sage advice. The original sage advice persuaded most of us to ignore our feelings on the raw and run it that the shove could be before the attack action not because it necessarily changed our minds about RAW but because it seemed more fun and we had a developer telling us that even if it didn't exactly say it that way that is exactly what was meant. I'm also pretty sure I'm not the only one who thought about it this way.

KarinsDad · Jan 23, 2019

Azzy said:
Feather Fall is cast as a reaction, not a bonus action, and doesn't even have similar verbiage.

Of course not. I didn't feel that I had to explain that my sentence was a semantic example. Say you had a magic item that stated:

"Feather Token: This token has 3 Charges, and it regains 1d3 expended daily at dawn. When you fall any distance greater than 5 feet while wearing it on your turn, you can use a bonus action to expend 1 of its Charges to cast Feather Fall."

Most people wouldn't interpret this to mean that you could cast feather fall before falling into a pit on your turn.

Like I said, I interpret "if you take" to mean "if you take", not "if you are about to take".

If you take the pie on your turn, then you can use a bonus action to hide it behind your back. You can't hide it behind your back until you actually take it.

Azzy · Jan 23, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Let's try this again.

To take a bonus action you must have a bonus action you're able to take. Shield master only grants a bonus action if you take the attack action on your turn. If you haven't taken the attack action on your turn you don't have a bonus action available to take.

The argument isn't that you must take the bonus action in some specific order on your turn, it's that you don't even have a bonus action to take until you've taken the attack action.

That's a bizarre stance that isn't supported by the text of the feat or by the rules for actions and bonus actions.

FrogReaver said:
There wasn't a claim made that it was. You should seriously try to understanding what people are saying before you just discount everything on a whim.

Dude, chill.

D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

Oofta

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Azzy

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KarinsDad

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FrogReaver

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FrogReaver

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