Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Herremann the Wise]

I find this news a little sad. I see the entire problem

There is a problem? Really?

as being one of people not willing to accept change, of wanting something to remain the same no matter how flawed it is.

Everyone? Every one? Is Pathfinder that flawed? Do you even know?

I'm a 30 year D&D player, I played and even wrote for 3.x, and I really love 4e. It's my edition. I personally think too many people have poisoned their minds to it.

Could there be an alternative explanation? Could it be that some people like chocolate and others like strawberry? Or are there people like me (of your vintage) that like chocolate AND strawberry. I've been a DDI subscriber continuously since day dot as well as a subscriber to just about every Pathfinder subscriber line. I can see though why some might not enjoy one or the other of them and that's cool. If it's not your cup of tea...

I was absolutely ready to quit 3.5 at the end of its run. I found the system unworkable and wasn't really enjoying myself. My first encounter with 4e had two players going down for the count playing against kobolds. I've been hooked ever since and refuse to buy any Pathfinder.

And so now your mind is "poisoned" in regards to Pathfinder. Seriously dude that is your loss. Even discounting the core system, there are a stack of people who purchase Pathfinder modules and APs to convert to 4e and numerous such threads on Paizo's forum helping and assisting in this process. To not be interested is one thing but you seem to be indicating a complete refusal; a thrusting of one's head into the sand seems a little extreme...

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Celtavian]

re

Interesting thoughts. I actually DM online almost exclusively, using a combination of Compendium, Power2ool, Maptool, mIRC and my own notes via Pages (I'd use Masterplan if it had a Mac counterpart). I love it, and it works, but for me personally I don't use the books themselves during game, I use them as reference during my prep. When I go into a game, I want the tools that'll facilitate my fast rulings and on the fly shenanigans, but what I'd use most the books for has already been taken care of. If I need a monster or item, I leap into the Compendium or Power2ool. Disease or poison or trap, usually Compendium if I don't use the basic guidelines in my physical DM screen (which I keep by my keyboard during sessions). Heh, you know it sounds like a chaotic nightmare, but I manage all these programs and materials quite fluidly.

I'm actually of the mind that the digital initiative will be considered 'blossomed' when it does what print products can't. I mean that is the great advantage in the new approach, isn't it? I posted something in the comments section of Steve's editorial, but it echoes what others across these boards have said, basically allowing for even more gamer networking and creating a DDI marketplace where subscriptions get you designer material at about the rate of Dungeon and Dragon, but which also gives you opportunities to buy material from third party and fans- complete with a rating system that allows people to build rep. DDI needs to become the hub of 4e material beyond what the staff can produce, where ideas are pushed and sold and accepted or rejected, but at least available and engaged.

In any case, beautiful artwork is hard to deny. If you look at the covers of the digital Dungeons and Dragons, though, on the whole they're gorgeous. I mean stunning. I don't think they get enough face time, though, on the site, and even less with the abolishing of PDF compilations. I'd much prefer the month's digital magazine covers gracing the webpage as opposed to the art relating to Encounters, honestly. They also need to post higher res images in their articles, and allow for higher res maps in their map packs between 'issues', but I digress.

So you don't play face to face D&D? Do you still play with friends? I tried online D&D, but it never worked out for me. Part of gaming is getting together with people I know. I'm not sure I would still be gaming if I didn't know a group of older geeks that still like to get together and exercise the imagination.

I imagine the online push is probably to capture younger gamers who seem more satisfied by digital interaciton. That wouldn't satisfy me. I'm probably not part of the future target market.

 

[MoxieFu]

Congratulations Paizo!

Two years ago, or even one year ago anyone who said that Paizo just might outsell WotC was ridiculed off the boards. Now it's even possible to speculate about Paizo buying D&D. While that may be an even greater longshot we have at least seen the first one happen.

If Hasbro does pull the D&D brand or just pulls the PnP RPG to leave the brand for use by WotC on board games, video games, etc. then that will open up the position of 800 lb. gorilla among PnP RPGs and Paizo is in the best position to take it. Maybe the game/hobby/market will benefit from losing the Dungeons & Dragons label because the game still suffers from the stigma attached to it in the minds of so many people in the general public.

I just saw a picture of the Pathfinder Basic game. I could well imagine a kid picking that box up in a toy store because they are drawn to the picture of adventure on the top of it. I can imagine further how many parents would respond when that child brought it to them if it had the name "Dungeons & Dragons" on the top. I honestly think that with the name "Pathfinder" it stands a better chance of going home with that child.

Maybe getting rid of the D&D name is exactly what the game needs?

 

[Pour]

So you don't play face to face D&D? Do you still play with friends? I tried online D&D, but it never worked out for me. Part of gaming is getting together with people I know. I'm not sure I would still be gaming if I didn't know a group of older geeks that still like to get together and exercise the imagination.

I imagine the online push is probably to capture younger gamers who seem more satisfied by digital interaciton. That wouldn't satisfy me. I'm probably not part of the future target market.

Oh I definitely do, but not on a weekly basis like my online groups. Gaming online has provided me a dedicated and dependable two parties, 7 players in all, who've actually become pretty good friends. We're on session 114 in the one group, and average around 6 hours per session.

Come to think, my first D&D game was via online, and my first DM now plays in mine. Wow, known that dotcomrade since... 2000. Heh, time flies.

There is a decided difference between my table games and my online games, though, and I think a lot of that comes from the different mediums. Online we use mIRC, and we really accentuate plot, description and dialogue, being a bunch of aspiring writers and all. It's wonderful, but way different than my more animated tabletop games, which have a lot of jokes and lightheartedness. I love both styles.

However, table top is the only way I'd think of inducting new players, which I've managed to do quite often. You wouldn't believe how many high school kids eat up table top RPGs, they're just never exposed to it. My games have kind of spread like wildfire to the point I have waiting lists, and better yet, managed to inspire junior DMs! Oh the RPG cycle is a beautiful thing *tear*

I also tried Encounters this past season, but I got a pretty bad DM who kept mixing up 3.5e rules with 4e until I just couldn't take it anymore. It bugged me because the new players were essentially learning a mishmash, but they seemed to be having fun and who was I to rain on that. Still, given how much D&D is a part of my life as it is, I opted out. The other table looked to have an awesome DM though...

 

[aboyd]

There is some healthy competition. I also think it is hard to dismiss the firing of bill slavicsek in this light.

Can you explain this to me? I seem to have missed what happened with Bill, and how it relates to competition now.

 

[Dannager]

Can you explain this to me? I seem to have missed what happened with Bill, and how it relates to competition now.

More importantly, does Bedrockgames have evidence that Bill was actually fired or laid off, as opposed to leaving the job voluntarily? I've never seen confirmation of this, and contemporary events lead me to believe that it's just as - if not more - likely that he left voluntarily.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I find this news a little sad. I see the entire problem as being one of people not willing to accept change, of wanting something to remain the same no matter how flawed it is.

We fear change

I'm a 30 year D&D player, I played and even wrote for 3.x, and I really love 4e. It's my edition. I personally think too many people have poisoned their minds to it. Kind of like the history of the tomato.

I was absolutely ready to quit 3.5 at the end of its run. I found the system unworkable and wasn't really enjoying myself. My first encounter with 4e had two players going down for the count playing against kobolds. I've been hooked ever since and refuse to buy any Pathfinder.

I feel sorry for the folks who think change for changes sake is always good. Sometimes it is, but this time, for many people, it wasn't. For some it was like biting into that Mounds bar and only discovering after they started chewing that sawdust really was not an improvement. Meanwhile other folks were talking about how the sawdust was so much better.

The problem kicks in when the new is worse than the old. Maybe replacing the almonds in a Mounds bar with sawdust doesn't make it taste better.

And there are plenty of folks who have decided to try 4e and decided that it is worse for them. There are lots of folks who listened to the spokesmonkeys and decided that the game sounded terrible. That it really and truly was not the game for them.

So, I will keep eating chocolate with almonds while those folks who like the taste of pine enjoy their sawdust. I will play Pathfinder and let the folks who like 4e enjoy their game. And I will roll my eyes when somebody says that it is only because I don't know any better that I enjoy my chocolate and almonds more than I would the sawdust..

The Auld Grump

 

[Bedrockgames]

More importantly, does Bedrockgames have evidence that Bill was actually fired or laid off, as opposed to leaving the job voluntarily? I've never seen confirmation of this, and contemporary events lead me to believe that it's just as - if not more - likely that he left voluntarily.

I have no evidence, but the rumor was he was fired. Just consider it the more likley scenario.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Can you explain this to me? I seem to have missed what happened with Bill, and how it relates to competition now.

Just before lisa's statement bill departed from wizards. Word was he had been fired and i personally find that the most believable scenario. It is a strong piece of evidence wizards is trying to find new direction. Bill was the head of r&d and for many he was the public face of d&d.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Pathfinder is much like indy music.

Too often it just feels rehashed from other things I've tried and it's certainly not my music/game of choice, but I don't hate it, and if others are playing it I'll join them. Also the fans are awful.

I find both pathfinder and 4e have a core of vocal fans. I don't play either one (though i have played them). Been reprimanded by fans of each for having the "wrong" opinion about the game. Though i have to admit, pathfinder i can enjoy, 4e is just too much outside my preference to enjoy.