D&D 5E Alertness & initative Query

[Hriston]

It sounds to me more like you just dislike the only options available.

The two options you gave aren't really available if you're following the rules. If you're resolving an attack out of combat, which is explicitly not what I'm suggesting, then you are having combat without following the combat rules. If you are making creatures with high initiative wait around until combat is actually started by a creature with lower initiative, then you are using the combat rules when there is no combat.

What I'm suggesting is no different than what happens when a party of PCs is facing a monster, and one of the players says, "I attack!" At that point you roll initiative and begin combat for the resolution of that attack and all other actions that will occur roughly simultaneously with it, i.e. within the same round. The monster itself now knows it is under attack from this particular PC due to his sword being raised, swinging towards the monster, or what have you. If the monster's initiative ends up being higher than the PC's then that means it is faster and will have the opportunity to actually strike first or whatever else it wants to do, but it should be clear to the monster it is now under attack. It shouldn't have to wait until the turn of the PC that began combat for this to be clear.

I don't see how any of this is a houserule, as you say, or anything other than a logical application of the rules for combat given in the book.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm not sure what you mean, but to clarify, the sound of the arrow in flight begins combat, but the arrow doesn't find its mark until the sniper's initiative count.

I mean an invisible silent creature 5 miles away using a telepathic mind blast.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The two options you gave aren't really available if you're following the rules. If you're resolving an attack out of combat, which is explicitly not what I'm suggesting, then you are having combat without following the combat rules. If you are making creatures with high initiative wait around until combat is actually started by a creature with lower initiative, then you are using the combat rules when there is no combat.

What I'm suggesting is no different than what happens when a party of PCs is facing a monster, and one of the players says, "I attack!" At that point you roll initiative and begin combat for the resolution of that attack and all other actions that will occur roughly simultaneously with it, i.e. within the same round. The monster itself now knows it is under attack from this particular PC due to his sword being raised, swinging towards the monster, or what have you. If the monster's initiative ends up being higher than the PC's then that means it is faster and will have the opportunity to actually strike first or whatever else it wants to do, but it should be clear to the monster it is now under attack. It shouldn't have to wait until the turn of the PC that began combat for this to be clear.

I don't see how any of this is a houserule, as you say, or anything other than a logical application of the rules for combat given in the book.

Actually, in most Situations I would start with: I attack and roll initiative. There are situations however where anything other than: Ok, use your readied action makes no sense.

Example: I am hidden and ready an action to snipe the enemy mage as soon as I see him wiggling his hands.
I do assume that I know I am in combat and the mage does not. He thinks he is there speaking to his next victims. I may have my other players roll deception and the one hiding stealth. But I would not deny them the chance to hit first when they planned that well. Even if the enemy wizard has a trident of warning or alert. His benefit will be that he may cast shield and act immediately afterwards.
Notice that only the very first person to shoot will be allowed to act outside of initiative order. My reasoning is that you can't shoot totally simultaneous.
And I use the rule for readied actions. So no multiattack, no movement at all. Just a single shot.
And I may give everyone an active perception check to notice what is goong on. So it should even out.

 

[Lanliss]

I mean an invisible silent creature 5 miles away using a telepathic mind blast.

If someone has Alert, I would just rule that this first attack was aimed at that PC, and misses(at no cost to the attacker.) The Alert PC notices the attack (Arrow whizzes by their ear, they feel the hair on their arm raise as a lightning bolt passes by, they feel a slight compulsion to kill their party members and decide that is unusual), and thus react quickly.

The rest of the party however is startled by the thunderous boom after the lightning bolt, or the sound of the arrow slamming into a nearby tree, so they do not react as quickly.

You can see this effect a lot in movies, where an attacker will fire a crossbow, and hit inches away from the Hero. The hero reacts immediately, while all the normal people are still startled by the sound of metal on stone.

In the specific case of the OP, I would say the party feels the ground rumble slightly, and surge up beneath them, and they all jump away just as the Bulettes break the surface, thus dodging the attack.

 

[Flamestrike]

As for my own games, I resolve whatever triggered combat first and then have initiative rolled. In the case of an attack, I resolve that specific attack. I then determine who is surprised and finally after all of that, round 1 begins. There's many reasons for this including avoiding some of the problems listed in this thread. It has been working very well thus far.

Sweet. In your games I would always be the one screamin I ATTACK first.

It gets me a whole extra round of combat. Good chance it surprises the enemy too, so (assuming I roll well for initiative) thats three whole turns in a row for me (The 'special' round 'outside' combat for being the one that triggered combat by announcing it, then the surprise round, AND then go first on round 2).

That should be enough for me to drop at least three of my highest level spells on the enemy before they can react.

Any reason why youre doing it this way, and not using the rules?

I mean an invisible silent creature 5 miles away using a telepathic mind blast.

Why use such ridiculous and extreme outliers? Obviously in this case the DM can step in.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sweet. In your games I would always be the one screamin I ATTACK first.

It gets me a whole extra round of combat. Good chance it surprises the enemy too, so (assuming I roll well for initiative) thats three whole turns in a row for me (The 'special' round 'outside' combat for being the one that triggered combat by announcing it, then the surprise round, AND then go first on round 2).

That should be enough for me to drop at least three of my highest level spells on the enemy before they can react.

Any reason why youre doing it this way, and not using the rules?



Why use such ridiculous and extreme outliers? Obviously in this case the DM can step in.

I think you just don't understand...

You won't get a single attack for screaming. Why should you? You just screamed... ridiculous to think you are surprising anyone screaming loud...

No. Not 3 attacks or spells before anyone can act. In most cases it ia impossible to gain an extra attack out of it. You need to have a specific trigger and you need to have surprise... i.e. people are unaware that combat will happen. And you really need to be stealthed in a way that you can attack.

Another example. An invisible stalker lurks around. You try to sneak past him. The stalker was hidden. You happen to run by him. Would you deny him an opportunity attack? (no alert feat).
So combat may start with an invisible fist in your face.

Would you roll initiative just for the invisible hidden stalker being around? Would the creature wandering through the dungeon suddenly hold still for 6 seconds, just because the invisible stalker surprised him?

I would rule something like first attack goes to the stalker as his reactin. Roll a perception check first to see of you are noticing that swing and you get another chance not being surprised and you may immediately react. Then proceed with normal rounds.

That really sounds better than I sneak around... oh I suddenly can't move anymore... some creature I did not notice is around (notice: still assume no alert feat).

The initiative rules in the PHB clearly declare that combat starts with the first sign of cl
ombat. Usually some creatures moving in or a creature shooting an arrow.
If PCs are the first to shoot. That is ok for me. If enemies really have no clue that the will be shot soon, that is their fault.

I do really miss the readiness saves from the playtest. That would easily solve my problem. Alert would just make you auto succeed on them. You can still be sneaked upon and shot at. But you can always easily react.


My outliers were ridiculous by choice. I just wanted to show that there could be difficult cases where it may be ridiculous to assume the character can always magically notice something.

Also with your argumebtation chances are that you with alert react and really don't know what exactly to react to. Your first action may be either looking what is around making a perception check and being hit hard by the person you notice, or you may ready an action against something losing your secondary attacks and so on. Is my solution better than yours? Probably not. But there are cases where I prefer my solution. And yes probably 1% of all encounters...

 

[Hriston]

I mean an invisible silent creature 5 miles away using a telepathic mind blast.

That's quite a range.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think you just don't understand...

You won't get a single attack for screaming. Why should you? You just screamed... ridiculous to think you are surprising anyone screaming loud...

@Noctem stated: I resolve whatever triggered combat first and then have initiative rolled. In the case of an attack, I resolve that specific attack. I then determine who is surprised and finally after all of that, round 1 begins.

So If I scream 'I ATTACK' in Noctems game, I get one free attack before initiative is even rolled. Assuming I surprised my target (say I was invisible) I then get another turn on round 1 (while my target cant act). THEN assuming I rolled well on initiative I get a third turn on turn 2 before my opponent.

So possibly three turns in a row. Which in 5e is a death sentence for my target.

Another example. An invisible stalker lurks around. You try to sneak past him. The stalker was hidden. You happen to run by him. Would you deny him an opportunity attack? (no alert feat).
So combat may start with an invisible fist in your face.

Dude, how am I stalking past a hidden invisible stalker? Im assuming if there is is monster in a room, and a PC as well, and theyre aware of each other, then initiative has already been rolled.

If the invisible stalker is hidden (and I am not aware of it) then initiative is rolled and I am surprised on round 1.

Would you roll initiative just for the invisible hidden stalker being around?

Of course. Its a hostile hidden monster. I would roll initaitive and use the rules for susprise.

This is EXACTLY what they model dude.

Would the creature wandering through the dungeon suddenly hold still for 6 seconds, just because the invisible stalker surprised him?

Again with this rubbish. Action during a combat round happens simultanously. People dont sit shock still for six seconds while other people move around. If you charge the Orc and your friend fireballs the orc, the fireball goes off at the same time you are running forward screaming. It is resovled a split second before you get there.

Despite the 'stop start' nature of how the game models combat, all combatants are moving and fighting at the same time.

I would rule something like first attack goes to the stalker as his reactin.

I would not. If there is a hidden monster that wants to attack the party THERE ARE RULES FOR THIS.

You determine surprise (the monster is hidden) and then roll initative. Any PC's that are unaware of the stalker are surprised and cant act on turn 1.

The initiative rules in the PHB clearly declare that combat starts with the first sign of combat.

No they certainly dont say that at all. They say the exact opposite (hidden creatures gain surprise).

If PCs are the first to shoot. That is ok for me. If enemies really have no clue that the will be shot soon, that is their fault.

You determine if the PCs are the first to shoot with initiative.

My outliers were ridiculous by choice. I just wanted to show that there could be difficult cases where it may be ridiculous to assume the character can always magically notice something.

And in the case of the 'ridiculous' outliers that you cited that have a next to zero chance of ever cropping up, then the DM can rule otherwise. Thats his job after all.

But a hidden creature initiating combat is not an outlier. Its a situation specifically contemplated by the rules.

You determine awareness and surprise. You roll initiative. Then, in turn order you resolve actions, with susrpried combatants missing turn 1.

Also with your argumebtation chances are that you with alert react and really don't know what exactly to react to. Your first action may be either looking what is around making a perception check and being hit hard by the person you notice, or you may ready an action against something losing your secondary attacks and so on. Is my solution better than yours? Probably not. But there are cases where I prefer my solution. And yes probably 1% of all encounters...

I dont understand this paragraph.

 

[FrogReaver]

I dislike out of combat attack resolution.

Simple solution is for players to state intent to attack enemies then roll initiative and then resolve attacks in actual combat.

No one should be saying I attack the Goblin is adventure mode D&D. They should be saying I want to attack the Goblin. DM roll initiative. Combat progresses as normal.

Likewise when an enemy is going to ambush a player. Before the enemy appears the players should be asked to roll initiative. Assuming they do not have the alert feat they are all surprised and can't attack. The enemy then attacks on his initiative turn.

Regular combat rules work just fine as long as all combat begins sometime after combat intent is declared but before the first attack is made.

The only issue is when DM's or players want to start combat by a narrative attack instead of letting combat rules handle combat. That's where this whole thing comes from.

 

[Flamestrike]

I dislike out of combat attack resolution.

Simple solution is for players to state intent to attack enemies then roll initiative and then resolve attacks in actual combat.

No one should be saying I attack the Goblin is adventure mode D&D. They should be saying I want to attack the Goblin. DM roll initiative. Combat progresses as normal.

Likewise when an enemy is going to ambush a player. Before the enemy appears the players should be asked to roll initiative. Assuming they do not have the alert feat they are all surprised and can't attack. The enemy then attacks on his initiative turn.

Regular combat rules work just fine as long as all combat begins sometime after combat intent is declared but before the first attack is made.

The only issue is when DM's or players want to start combat by a narrative attack instead of letting combat rules handle combat. That's where this whole thing comes from.

Agree.

As soon as a PC declares a hostile action, initiative is rolled. As soon as a critter is nearby with hostile intent, initiative is rolled.

If a group of PCs are chatting to a group of NPCs and a PC yells out 'I attack' (or an NPC decides to attack) then I respond with 'roll initiative'.

The reacting party see the hostile actor go for his sword and go to leap forward and stab them. If they roll well enough on initiative they get to react before that actor resolves his attack.

Combat is simply a break from narrative time to combat time. If youre allowing attacks outside of the turn order, youre not doing it right.