Necromancy and AL

[KahlessNestor]

Plate armor or a horse are hardly as game breaking as a horde of zombies. ..

 

[kalani]

I am not an admin - but I am relaying /paraphrasing the official response that has been said about minions since season 1.

Regarding Equipment: Bad analogy as equipment purchases should be tracked on your logsheet since there is a GP cost. It is only a slight adjustment to actually record the specific purchases in your notes section.

You are correct however, that I cannot actually verify anything written in the notes section without physical proof. Fortunately, equipment is verifiable simply by looking in the PHB (or the relevant adventure in the case of unusual equipment such as cold-weather gear).

This is an honor system, and it is very easy for a character to conveniently forget to update their undead on their logsheets. Even if they are diligent however, a DM still has no way of verifying the notes - and as such can ignore them or allow them as they see fit.

Note that I didn't say that you will always start an adventure with zero minions, only that a DM might ask this of you. The same also applies in respect to simulacrum and other similar spells. Heck, even Leomund's secret chest is subject to DM adjudication (as they have no way of verifying how long since you last cast the spell). While I have never had a problem, I also make a habit of recasting LSC whenever we are fast-travelling (s)uch as journeys described as being 3 days between locations for example) by saying "During the first day of travel, I memorize LSC and cast it at the start of the day".

If I cast simulacrum however, I should expect that the spell will only last for the duration of the current adventure. If I adventure with the same DM, they will most likely allow me to keep it from adventure to adventure. If however, I go to a different table - I cannot expect them to honor anything which happened in another adventure which cannot be 100% verifiable (such as looking it up in a book and seeing a printed value).

YMMV. You might never run into a DM who asks you to reset your undead count to zero. You might run into it frequently; and if you cannot accept the fact that table-variation is inherent to minionmancy, you probably shouldn't be playing a minionmancer.

 

[Cascade]

Okay so let's break this down:

1. I've already stated that I'm looking for ways to maximize efficiency at a table. Dice rolling apps pretty much solve the problem of rolling 16 d20s for at-advantage Skeleton Archers. .

I am all for allowing players to expand various role bending play styles and concepts, however having one show up with 8+ additional 5 foot spaces of actions would even stress my open play patience.

There are simply limits. For example; I had a player show up with a deck of cards and was doing fortunes and using cards as a role play aspect with his spell casting. It was entertaining, for a while, however there came a point where the game slowed and I asked for time reasons and finishing, we condense his style to move along. He seemed fine, he had some fun, as did the table and we moved along.

I can appreciate your openness to come looking for ways and means to reduce the real world time to accommodate your desired style, however as the thread has moved along, you seem to be looking more for validation to impose your style without restriction.

The admins said, have fun and enjoy.

There will be table variation and you should incorporate that into the concept or you may find it far to frustrating to sometimes play with mittens on...

 

[RulesJD]

I am not an admin - but I am relaying /paraphrasing the official response that has been said about minions since season 1.

Regarding Equipment: Bad analogy as equipment purchases should be tracked on your logsheet since there is a GP cost. It is only a slight adjustment to actually record the specific purchases in your notes section.

You are correct however, that I cannot actually verify anything written in the notes section without physical proof. Fortunately, equipment is verifiable simply by looking in the PHB (or the relevant adventure in the case of unusual equipment such as cold-weather gear).

This is an honor system, and it is very easy for a character to conveniently forget to update their undead on their logsheets. Even if they are diligent however, a DM still has no way of verifying the notes - and as such can ignore them or allow them as they see fit.

Note that I didn't say that you will always start an adventure with zero minions, only that a DM might ask this of you. The same also applies in respect to simulacrum and other similar spells. Heck, even Leomund's secret chest is subject to DM adjudication (as they have no way of verifying how long since you last cast the spell).
*snip*

That's actually not true anymore since the latest ruling for CoS addendums. It's actually adds for an interesting method of tracking "time" based spells/effects.

The use of realtime for the Dark Gifts suddenly makes it very easy. Just look at the actual date when your character last recorded casting (and spending the GP just like you would for any other piece of equipment) of LSC, and check the realtime number of days. Poof, problem solved using an existing rule that's already been established by AL (and frankly has the added benefit of encouraging players to play more).

Your argument against comparing equipment vs. spell effects doesn't really make sense. The gold costs of the spells is literally in the PHB as well for any spell that consumes/requires an expensive component that can't be replaced by a focus/component pouch. Spend 300gp on a diamond for Raise Dead? Literally the same as spending 300gp on 6 health potions. Spend 1500gp on a ruby for a Simulacrum (time doesn't matter either which makes it even easier to track)? Track that too. If a DM kills one, just have the player note it on their AL Logsheet. Just like marking down reductions in AC to a player's armor from a Gelatinous Cube, etc.

 

[RulesJD]

*snip*

however having one show up with 8+ additional 5 foot spaces of actions would even stress my open play patience.

*snip*

I can appreciate your openness to come looking for ways and means to reduce the real world time to accommodate your desired style, however as the thread has moved along, you seem to be looking more for validation to impose your style without restriction.

To quote myself:
"1. Magnetic tokens. I'm thinking those ones that are about the size of a nickel. Plan is to have 2 Skeletons minis and then stack tokens underneath to represent more than 1 Skeleton. Should be helpful for grid combat with the horde."

My post literally asked for advice on how to reduce the impact of having 8+ skeleton minis on a board. 1 Skeleton mini + 7 tokens underneath = almost the exact same size on a grid as a Huge creature, which no one seems to complain about. Alternatively, 2 Skeletons + 3 tokens underneath each = 2 large creatures (2 blocks for 4 grids each). I take a grand total of 9 grid squares either way, the same as a Polymorphed Giant Ape, certain mounts, many enemies, etc.

Again, I can't stress this enough, I'm not looking for validation as it's already been provided that Necromancy Wizards + Animate Dead is not banned by AL. What I'm seeking is advice on how to reduce the impact of that combo in AL games, be it through the use of physical systems (tokens, dice rolling apps, etc) or roleplaying systems (having the minions bury themselves outside of town if I can't store them elsewhere so if I can't reassert control they are simply stuck underground, using a bag of bones, etc.).

And yeah, maybe, just maybe, having AL issue either some clarification or at least shift the conversation to the idea that letting players use Necromancy isn't inherently a bad thing.

 

[kalani]

That's actually not true anymore since the latest ruling for CoS addendums. It's actually adds for an interesting method of tracking "time" based spells/effects.

The use of realtime for the Dark Gifts suddenly makes it very easy. Just look at the actual date when your character last recorded casting (and spending the GP just like you would for any other piece of equipment) of LSC, and check the realtime number of days. Poof, problem solved using an existing rule that's already been established by AL (and frankly has the added benefit of encouraging players to play more).

Your argument against comparing equipment vs. spell effects doesn't really make sense. The gold costs of the spells is literally in the PHB as well for any spell that consumes/requires an expensive component that can't be replaced by a focus/component pouch. Spend 300gp on a diamond for Raise Dead? Literally the same as spending 300gp on 6 health potions. Spend 1500gp on a ruby for a Simulacrum (time doesn't matter either which makes it even easier to track)? Track that too. If a DM kills one, just have the player note it on their AL Logsheet. Just like marking down reductions in AC to a player's armor from a Gelatinous Cube, etc.

The amendments document does set an interesting and creative precedent which could be adapted for spells such as this. However, unless the admins release a FAQ making this official - it would still be subject to table variation.

Its not the cost of these spells that is the issue. It is the things that happen to the minion after the spell is cast which are impossible to verify. As constructs, simulacrum cannot be healed by most healing spells, and specifically cannot regain expended spell slots. How can a DM verify how many HPs the simulacrum lost in a previous adventure? Unless they were physically present, they have no way of verifying anything the player writes on their logsheet regarding the simulacrum's current HPs and spell slots.

As such, they have no way of knowing whether the simulacrum is fresh, or whether it is in sore need of some expensive alchemical components in order to restore its HP.

The same applies in respect to animated undead (which are also difficult to heal). No entry on a logsheet can verify this information with 100% veracity, especially considering the fact that many players write very little on their logsheets as is.

 

[Cascade]

And yeah, maybe, just maybe, having AL issue either some clarification or at least shift the conversation to the idea that letting players use Necromancy isn't inherently a bad thing.

I personally can't see that happening...

This is really a "kosher" discussion.
Sure people can eat pork but that they choose not to affects the "pork business" model. You can choose to sell pork but you can't make them buy it.

What happens when a party of real people roleplay that they don't want to play with a necromancer and skeletons?
Someone has to give. The admins and rules makers simply wont pick a side and if they do, it would be to ban the necromancy stuff. It just comes down to numbers.

I can "technically" have a paladin warlock that utterly hates undead show up at a table with you and kills your undead as soon as they're summoned. I wouldn't attack you and you couldn't attack me, per no PvP interaction is accepted. I could also get temps for killing your undead and insist that its all legal and not banned. It doesn't make for a mutually accommodating group, build playstyle....

Again, you to appear to be looking for validation as you want a statement (AL issue...) that it can't be restricted when the admins are clearly saying that it can be...

Lastly, I understand your predicament. I also have a necromancer style character I'm playing but I'm just being mindful of the others players when I sit down at a table and see if they can play with him....if not I'll pick something else. It just the taboo / kosher model.

 

[RulesJD]

I personally can't see that happening...

This is really a "kosher" discussion.
Sure people can eat pork but that they choose not to affects the "pork business" model. You can choose to sell pork but you can't make them buy it.

What happens when a party of real people roleplay that they don't want to play with a necromancer and skeletons?
Someone has to give. The admins and rules makers simply wont pick a side and if they do, it would be to ban the necromancy stuff. It just comes down to numbers.

I can "technically" have a paladin warlock that utterly hates undead show up at a table with you and kills your undead as soon as they're summoned. I wouldn't attack you and you couldn't attack me, per no PvP interaction is accepted. I could also get temps for killing your undead and insist that its all legal and not banned. It doesn't make for a mutually accommodating group, build playstyle....

Again, you to appear to be looking for validation as you want a statement (AL issue...) that it can't be restricted when the admins are clearly saying that it can be...

Lastly, I understand your predicament. I also have a necromancer style character I'm playing but I'm just being mindful of the others players when I sit down at a table and see if they can play with him....if not I'll pick something else. It just the taboo / kosher model.

Wow, quite a few assumptions you're making. You absolutely cannot "technically" have a player attack another player's resources anymore than I could just go attacking your summoned Find Steed.

If a Player attacks another Player's resources without permission, that's table PVP and clearly banned. Full stop. The only other alternative is letting the player's summons also attack the aggressive player as well (although honestly now I think about it, letting a Warlock kill a minion for Temp hp isn't a bad idea...) because the description of the Undead are that they defend against aggressive attackers sans any instruction from the spellcaster.

What happens when a Dwarf with a hatred of Orcs plays with a Half-Orc player? Does everything suddenly fall apart in AL and one player has to change?

No, that's stupid. Same with characters who hate demons still somehow managing to play with Tieflings, et al. You are inventing a problem where there is none.

 

[RulesJD]

The amendments document does set an interesting and creative precedent which could be adapted for spells such as this. However, unless the admins release a FAQ making this official - it would still be subject to table variation.

Its not the cost of these spells that is the issue. It is the things that happen to the minion after the spell is cast which are impossible to verify. As constructs, simulacrum cannot be healed by most healing spells, and specifically cannot regain expended spell slots. How can a DM verify how many HPs the simulacrum lost in a previous adventure? Unless they were physically present, they have no way of verifying anything the player writes on their logsheet regarding the simulacrum's current HPs and spell slots.

As such, they have no way of knowing whether the simulacrum is fresh, or whether it is in sore need of some expensive alchemical components in order to restore its HP.

The same applies in respect to animated undead (which are also difficult to heal). No entry on a logsheet can verify this information with 100% veracity, especially considering the fact that many players write very little on their logsheets as is.

Agreed on the Simulacrum HP/Spell slots. But the same problem arises with other items players have that are perfectly AL legal such as Shield Guardians stored spell, etc. Just have the player record the Simulacrum's HP/Spell slots each session. If the player doesn't want to record it, then treat it like literally every other thing that players don't record. Either be okay with the Honor System that AL purports to operate under and trust the player, or disallow it. But then don't be surprised when you come to a table and suddenly your unrecorded purchase of Plate armor is disallowed, etc.

*edit*

Forgot to mention, it's actually much easier for tracking Undead. They can spend hit die to heal so they are generally going to start at full health.

 

[CapnZapp]

You are inventing a problem where there is none.

Excuse me for interfering, but to me it seems he's not the one with a problem.

He doesn't mind the way a Necromancer player can't expect, much less demand, to bring undead minions from one table to the next. He's not the one arguing a zombie is a possession like a horse or a sword, even as an absurd comparison...

Please understand and graciously accept that unlike horses or half-orcs, necromancy is controversial and not always appreciated at a table. That's it.