When a man plays a woman

[Teflon Billy]

This surprises me.
Plus, to me it is the player's choice to make, not the GMs.

I've long been of the mind that given the disparity of work/prep time between DM's and players, that the game *is* the DM's.

The Players get to choose whether they play or walk. I seek no input into my setting decision and (generally) accept none that doesn't appeal to me.

Perhaps I just have nice mature friends to game with.

Passive-aggressiveness is not a nice look this fall.

 

[Roseweave]

IMO Rpgs are collaborative storytelling. While by definition the GM has the most power you can't really have a game without the players.

ALSO I've been listening to motown all the way through this thread and i can't stop now lol.

 

[Teflon Billy]

IMO Rpgs are collaborative storytelling. While by definition the GM has the most power you can't really have a game without the players.

While that is certainly one kind of RPG, there are lots of others.

Mine simulationist world-building. PC's (once they are in the setting) are the free radicals. Weekly, following the game, I ask myself "How did their actions alter the setting?"...then adjust it accordingly. None of that requires any pre-game input from the players about setting norms or game requirements.

And I wouldn't say it's about who has the most "power", it's about who has to invest the most effort and time into the game.

As for "not being able to have a game without players"...players grow on trees. Good DM's are rare.

ALSO I've been listening to motown all the way through this thread and i can't stop now lol.

Ditto.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

As a DM, and as a player, I support anyone interested in role-playing a character of differing gender. As long as it isn't being used as a means to be offensive (such as role-playing one negative gender stereotype as if it were a fully-realized personality), or in a way that goes beyond what the rest of the table is comfortable with (such as trying to describe out your own sexual fantasies while the rest of the table didn't want this campaign to involve that material in an "on-screen" fashion).

I have experienced only a few (literally 3, oddly enough) people out of the hundreds I've shared the table with that had problems related to such role-playing: A player that always wanted to play busty lesbian elven prostitute ninjas (a mix of the offensive and out of bounds play), a player that wanted to go into detail describing bathing and hygiene habits in a way that made the rest of the table uncomfortable, and a player that took issue with the DM portraying a female character with romantic interest in my male character (homophobia, expressed by him saying that it was "gay" that I wasn't "skeeved" by the male DM's portrayal of flirtation). And in all cases, the solution was not to restrict everyone else that was role-playing in good faith, but to excise the player that was not doing so.

 

[pdzoch]

This should be an interesting thread.

I've have seen many players play opposite genders in my game and not once have I seen a player use the gender to deliberately play the gender poorly, but neither have I seen them play the gender with any genuine depth. I did have one player MANY years ago when we were adolescents play a female that was an over the top promiscuous woman, but he also played a male character that way, too; so as creepy as it was, it wasn't a gender slam, and the group self-corrected. [even the player struggled to portray the sexuality well as, at his young age, he did not have enough of a frame of reference to execute the role play decisions. so it was a short lived experience] I have never seen a player play the same gender and race consistently, unless it was as themselves. So I do not think there has been an issue.

That all said, the depth of background to form genuine role play motivations is a problem for any player, regardless of gender. All player project a portion of themselves (to make the character relevant to them) as well as their own understanding of a characteristic they wish to use to shape the character. But unless the player have genuine experience (real personal experience) that matches the background of the character, it is contrived. Does a player who never had to practice anything really understand the work ethic required to become proficient as a fighter (or do they think it is achieved by natural genetics, Rocky montage, or trained-once movie Conan?) Can a player really role-play the brooding and silent suffering of a character who lost a family member without having to have really lost a family member? Almost all role-play is going to incorporate superficial understanding of the role, and seldom with enough depth to put it in context. At best, players can learn more about a characteristic by role-playing them, but it will only be in the context of the role-played game and their own personal experience.

In my experience, the younger players tend to gravitate toward stereotypes most; and older players tended to have more depth, but that may not necessarily due to more knowledge of others as much as a larger life experience that informs them.

 

[Celebrim]

I've have seen many players play opposite genders in my game and not once have I seen a player use the gender to deliberately play the gender poorly, but neither have I seen them play the gender with any genuine depth.

Considering how rarely one ever sees any characterization with genuine depth, this should hardly be surprising.

I don't care what you play, just as long as you keep it PG. Anything that isn't PG, happens off screen and without elaboration.

I don't mind the occasional romance plot regardless of the player/PC mashup, but if I start to feel that in some fashion the player's sexual fantasies were becoming a large portion of his decision making as a player, I'd probably take them aside privately and tell them to tone it down. That would be true regardless of how the player chose to engage with those fantasies, what those fantasies were, or what gender that they choose to play. I'm not there as a DM to help you explore or express sexual experience, fantasies, or desires at the gaming table. That's a whole other spectrum of role-playing, that isn't part of what I do or what I think other players should be subjected to.

Beyond the obvious whose parts fits into whom differences that I'd rather not make a part of social play, I don't particularly find men and women all that different and certainly believe the range of experiences and abilities for genders is wide enough to encompass just about any PC concept. So I tend to not worry too much about whether a player is playing a gender right. Every characterization a player makes is going to be contrived and stereotyped. Heck, if it's badly acted, then it will probably be an above average characterization in that at least it will be acted out and consciously considered.

So far, abiding by those guidelines, I've never had anyone feel threatened. Nor have I ever observed big differences in what male or female players wanted to explore in terms of romantic or sexual game experiences (some play promiscuous PC, others chaste, some want no attachments, others prefer a romantic object of their affections), or in terms of exploring opposite gendered characters, or in terms of their interest and tolerance adult themes (pregnancy, marriage, family, etc.). Because of that, my bias would be to see anyone that wanted to break or stretch my guidelines, or anyone getting uncomfortable within PG framework, as probably not well suited to the table.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Considering how rarely one ever sees any characterization with genuine depth, this should hardly be surprising.

I don't care what you play, just as long as you keep it PG. Anything that isn't PG, happens off screen and without elaboration.

I don't mind the occasional romance plot regardless of the player/PC mashup, but if I start to feel that in some fashion the player's sexual fantasies were becoming a large portion of his decision making as a player, I'd probably take them aside privately and tell them to tone it down. That would be true regardless of how the player chose to engage with those fantasies, what those fantasies were, or what gender that they choose to play. I'm not there as a DM to help you explore or express sexual experience, fantasies, or desires at the gaming table. That's a whole other spectrum of role-playing, that isn't part of what I do or what I think other players should be subjected to.

Yeah, as my good friend Fusangite once said "If a player goes home after my game and masturbates to the memory of it, my game as clearly jumped the rails".

If someone says "Rothgar wants to spend the night with the barmaid" my response is "Done. The next morning you all find yourselves...."

 

[Celebrim]

Yeah, as my good friend Fusangite once said "If a player goes home after my game and masturbates to the memory of it, my game as clearly jumped the rails".

If someone says "Rothgar wants to spend the night with the barmaid" my response is "Done. The next morning you all find yourselves...."

I am very flattered when a player expresses a romantic interest in an NPC, because it means I've been doing my job as a DM characterizing that NPC well. I've had plenty of players both male and female get "crushes" on NPCs, and as long as it stays at that level I'm ok with it. I don't get wierded out being the girl or the boy in a mildly flirtatious relationship, although I confess it surprised me and threw me off my game the first time it happened with a gay player.... for all of 15 seconds or so, just because I wasn't anticipating it.

But that is where it stops, and anything beyond that is like the wedding bed scene in Les Miserables - let us now draw a curtain over the scene, upon which we will not intrude. The details are not important to my game.

If I had to guess, many players have a romantic attachment of a sort to their opposite gendered PC, in that many will choose PC which has traits that they find desirable or attractive in a member of the opposite gender. This is not that different than how I suspect and have observed many readers engage with characters from fiction. For example, when I have discussed Tolkien with female fans, I was initially surprised to discover how many of them developed a romantic attachment to the male characters - not only Aragorn or Faramir (obviously), but even Frodo, Sam, Merry, or Pippin, Again, I'm ok with that sort of (inevitable?) exploration, so long as it is romantic rather than erotic in nature. A PC as an idealized romantic partner, is generally treated with much more respect than a PC as mere sexual object. I haven't had a player create a PC as sexual object, but if one did, I imagine it would almost immediately be obvious and immediately break the 'keep it PG' rule.

 

[Roseweave]

As a DM, and as a player, I support anyone interested in role-playing a character of differing gender. As long as it isn't being used as a means to be offensive (such as role-playing one negative gender stereotype as if it were a fully-realized personality), or in a way that goes beyond what the rest of the table is comfortable with (such as trying to describe out your own sexual fantasies while the rest of the table didn't want this campaign to involve that material in an "on-screen" fashion).

I have experienced only a few (literally 3, oddly enough) people out of the hundreds I've shared the table with that had problems related to such role-playing: A player that always wanted to play busty lesbian elven prostitute ninjas (a mix of the offensive and out of bounds play), a player that wanted to go into detail describing bathing and hygiene habits in a way that made the rest of the table uncomfortable, and a player that took issue with the DM portraying a female character with romantic interest in my male character (homophobia, expressed by him saying that it was "gay" that I wasn't "skeeved" by the male DM's portrayal of flirtation). And in all cases, the solution was not to restrict everyone else that was role-playing in good faith, but to excise the player that was not doing so.

As someone who played a busty eleven sex worker fairy/bard/mage it does sound like he was trying to be edgy/clever, lol. My character sort of evolved as a concept before she became that.

tbh I'd be very wary of letting a cis male player playing a sex worker of any sort. I actually know lesbian sex workers, and it's an interesting sort of headscape to be in that makes you think about the nature of attraction and emotional labour, etc.

That homophobic player sounded a like a total asshat. I'm lucky I haven't been in a game with someone like that.

 

[Celebrim]

In my experience when men play as women, they play up the seductress part (perhaps part of the male fantasy of how women should be?)

Now that I've made my position clear, I can say in 30+ years at dozens of tables, I have honestly never seen this stereotype actually happen. I know that it can happen, and have already outlined some theory as to why it happens (which I think accords pretty well with your theory), but I don't think this is as common as you think.

or have some sexual trauma in their character's history that defines them as man hating violence mongers.

In the rare cases even seen character backgrounds with sexual violence, it had nothing to do with stereotypical man-hating or playing the character that way. So far as I could guess playing amateur psychologist and not doing much inquiry into a players private affairs, it was largely an excuse for the player to play an essentially asexual character. They were more or less taking that off the table, which is fine.

I have also seen male characters who had been victims of sexual violence in their background. Again, no real interest in playing amateur psychologist on why that would be, and as long as they keep it 'PG', I don't care.

Personally, I find your stereotyping mildly offensive, as it seems to expect the worst of people and RPers in particular. That hasn't been my experience with people, though perhaps I've just been lucky.