D&D 5E Old Vexed Question: All too Important Dexterity Stat and Finesse Weapons, namely the Rapier

[Jacob Lewis]

You know what a rapier with a dex-damage bonus can't beat?

Really big Damage resistance.
Con saves against poison.
Feeblemind.
Sneak attacks from a hidden goblin rogue/ranger w/ favored enemy: rapiers.
The power of Love.
Heat metal.
Web/entangle/hold person spells.
Bottomless pits.
Too many trips to the chinese buffet where the sneeze guard is an upgrade fee you are not willing to pay.
A swarm of deadly bees.
A swarm of deadly anything.
A swarm of threads just like this one.

 

[aco175]

I'd make it a d6 weapon to solve things, unless you have all the other fighters with d12 and 2d6 weapons. Most of my games seem to have 1d8 longswords and maybe a d10 ax, but the thief seems to use d4 daggers.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I would be very interested in hearing about these changes you've made, if you're of a mind to share them.

I changed what the stats do, mostly to address the discrepancy between saving throws (being unable to hit very high DCs on non-proficient saves, and some saves being much more common than others), but also to reduce ambiguity (particularly between Intelligence and Wisdom, and what exactly a Charisma save is supposed to cover). The end result includes the following:

• All checks are made with a combination of two bonuses.
• PERCEPTION replaces WISDOM, as the linked stat for Survival and Medicine checks.
• MIND replaces INTELLIGENCE, but also covers the aspects of Wisdom that are related to intuition and understanding.
• SPIRIT replaces CHARISMA for the purposes of social skills, but it also takes over for Wisdom in determining divine spell save DC.
• FORTITUDE saves replace Strength saves and Constitution saves. Your Fortitude save bonus is equal to Strength bonus plus Constitution bonus. Proficiency isn't a factor for anyone.
• REFLEX saves replaces all Dexterity saves. Your Reflex bonus is equal to your Dexterity bonus plus your Perception bonus.
• WILL saves replace Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saves. Your Will bonus is equal to your Mind bonus plus your Spirit bonus.
• Initiative is the one exception to the rule about adding two numbers together, since you add Dexterity+Perception+Proficiency.

Specifically for the balance of Dexterity, and to prevent anyone from gaining a bonus while dumping the relevant stat, there's no way to change the following:

• Strength is used to hit with melee weapons. If you're proficient, then you also add your proficiency bonus.
• Dexterity is used to determine your AC. If you're proficient in the armor you're using, then you also add your proficiency bonus to AC. Even in heavy armor.
• Constitution gives you temporary HP, that renew with a short rest. Armor adds to this value, instead of improving AC.
• Perception is used to hit with ranged weapons. If you're proficient, then you also add your proficiency bonus.

Following those rules, you're expected to build certain ways, in order to fit your character concept:

• Fighters can either go Strength/Con, and just accept that you're going to get hit (and nullify much of the damage with your temporary HP); or Strength/Dex, if you want to avoid getting hit in the first place. Most fighters should end up with decent scores in both Dex and Con.
• Monks are a subclass of fighter. They get a bonus to AC when using light armor and no shield, which means they'll probably go the high-Dex and lower-Con route. They're also still proficient with greatswords, so you can go greatsword+headbutt if you don't want to go the flurry route. Monks gain no benefit from Perception, Mind, or Spirit, aside from saving throws and initiative.
• Rogues are intended to fight at range, so Perception is their main stat. They probably want decent Dexterity, because they don't get heavy armor. If you want to play a melee rogue, then you need to invest in Strength.
• Rangers are a subclass of rogue, and don't have any magical powers, so all of the same advice applies to them.

There's more to it, of course. I had to change the weapon table in order to re-balance heavy weapons and light weapons, and that required a complete overhaul of some other numbers. There's nothing like GWM +10 to damage, but the relevant fighting style gives the equivalent of +1d4 at all times. A longsword in two hands is exactly as powerful as a greatsword; but the greatsword is heavy, and there's a feat that gives the equivalent of the barbarian's Reckless Attack, and it only works with heavy weapons. Piercing damage offers a slight benefit over slashing, in terms of better critical hits, but you can't use a rapier in two hands.

If that sounds interesting and you want to learn more, I recommend purchasing Gishes & Goblins at DriveThruRPG.com. I've been holding off on advertising, until the print version is available, but it's already available in digital format.

 

[ccs]

Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
*Want to do any physical task that doesn't rely on brute strangth? Dex. - yep, I mean, what else are you going to roll against? Con in a few instances, maybe. But if not Str, then Dex.
Want to steal something? Want to hide something? Dex. - right there in 1e.

I’d consider the latter to just be a specific case of the former, and the former I don’t think was really true in 1e. Most specific tasks were handled by percentile rolls with the chances determined by class.

Sure, if you were a Thief. Then you were rolling %s for climbing, picking pockets, moving silently, etc (p.28, 1e PHB) And there was a chart of what bonus/negative you got based on your dex. (see p.12 of the 1e PHB)
Assassins, Monks, and assorted stuff out of Dragon Magazine also used the thief ability chart for some of their abilities. (refer to pages cited for your %s)
Everyone else though? There were no hard rules. In general it was you rolling =/under your stat on a d20 at the DMs discretion.
BUT! There's more than a few modules out there that spell out assorted ways to make an ability check for an encounter. Like I said, unless you were a Thief/assassin/Monk there wasn't a single system.
Then along came the non-weapon proficiency system in OA, DSG, & WSG. But again, no %s involved.

 

[Charlaquin]

I changed what the stats do, mostly to address the discrepancy between saving throws (being unable to hit very high DCs on non-proficient saves, and some saves being much more common than others), but also to reduce ambiguity (particularly between Intelligence and Wisdom, and what exactly a Charisma save is supposed to cover). The end result includes the following:

• All checks are made with a combination of two bonuses.
• PERCEPTION replaces WISDOM, as the linked stat for Survival and Medicine checks.
• MIND replaces INTELLIGENCE, but also covers the aspects of Wisdom that are related to intuition and understanding.
• SPIRIT replaces CHARISMA for the purposes of social skills, but it also takes over for Wisdom in determining divine spell save DC.
• FORTITUDE saves replace Strength saves and Constitution saves. Your Fortitude save bonus is equal to Strength bonus plus Constitution bonus. Proficiency isn't a factor for anyone.
• REFLEX saves replaces all Dexterity saves. Your Reflex bonus is equal to your Dexterity bonus plus your Perception bonus.
• WILL saves replace Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saves. Your Will bonus is equal to your Mind bonus plus your Spirit bonus.
• Initiative is the one exception to the rule about adding two numbers together, since you add Dexterity+Perception+Proficiency.

Specifically for the balance of Dexterity, and to prevent anyone from gaining a bonus while dumping the relevant stat, there's no way to change the following:

• Strength is used to hit with melee weapons. If you're proficient, then you also add your proficiency bonus.
• Dexterity is used to determine your AC. If you're proficient in the armor you're using, then you also add your proficiency bonus to AC. Even in heavy armor.
• Constitution gives you temporary HP, that renew with a short rest. Armor adds to this value, instead of improving AC.
• Perception is used to hit with ranged weapons. If you're proficient, then you also add your proficiency bonus.

Following those rules, you're expected to build certain ways, in order to fit your character concept:

• Fighters can either go Strength/Con, and just accept that you're going to get hit (and nullify much of the damage with your temporary HP); or Strength/Dex, if you want to avoid getting hit in the first place. Most fighters should end up with decent scores in both Dex and Con.
• Monks are a subclass of fighter. They get a bonus to AC when using light armor and no shield, which means they'll probably go the high-Dex and lower-Con route. They're also still proficient with greatswords, so you can go greatsword+headbutt if you don't want to go the flurry route. Monks gain no benefit from Perception, Mind, or Spirit, aside from saving throws and initiative.
• Rogues are intended to fight at range, so Perception is their main stat. They probably want decent Dexterity, because they don't get heavy armor. If you want to play a melee rogue, then you need to invest in Strength.
• Rangers are a subclass of rogue, and don't have any magical powers, so all of the same advice applies to them.

There's more to it, of course. I had to change the weapon table in order to re-balance heavy weapons and light weapons, and that required a complete overhaul of some other numbers. There's nothing like GWM +10 to damage, but the relevant fighting style gives the equivalent of +1d4 at all times. A longsword in two hands is exactly as powerful as a greatsword; but the greatsword is heavy, and there's a feat that gives the equivalent of the barbarian's Reckless Attack, and it only works with heavy weapons. Piercing damage offers a slight benefit over slashing, in terms of better critical hits, but you can't use a rapier in two hands.

If that sounds interesting and you want to learn more, I recommend purchasing Gishes & Goblins at DriveThruRPG.com. I've been holding off on advertising, until the print version is available, but it's already available in digital format.

Oh wow, that is extensive. That's awesome, thank you for sharing!

 

[Mouseferatu]

Thing is--and I realize that it's foolish to argue realism where weapons in D&D are concerned, but I can't help it--rapiers shouldn't be d8 weapons.

Short swords and rapiers are both stabbing blades. And the thing is, after the first foot of length (give or take), extra length isn't going to do any additional damage, because you've already run the person through.

Take a look at a rapier blade, then take a look at a Roman gladius (for instance), and tell me which one you'd rather have shoved through your torso. I'll take the rapier, personally; the extra width of the gladius is going to tear things up worse, and is more likely to slice something vital.

 

[5ekyu]

Thing is--and I realize that it's foolish to argue realism where weapons in D&D are concerned, but I can't help it--rapiers shouldn't be d8 weapons.

Short swords and rapiers are both stabbing blades. And the thing is, after the first foot of length (give or take), extra length isn't going to do any additional damage, because you've already run the person through.

Take a look at a rapier blade, then take a look at a Roman gladius (for instance), and tell me which one you'd rather have shoved through your torso. I'll take the rapier, personally; the extra width of the gladius is going to tear things up worse, and is more likely to slice something vital.

You are absolutely correct in the sbove... right up until you used the word "rapiers".

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Thing is--and I realize that it's foolish to argue realism where weapons in D&D are concerned, but I can't help it--rapiers shouldn't be d8 weapons.

Short swords and rapiers are both stabbing blades. And the thing is, after the first foot of length (give or take), extra length isn't going to do any additional damage, because you've already run the person through.

Take a look at a rapier blade, then take a look at a Roman gladius (for instance), and tell me which one you'd rather have shoved through your torso. I'll take the rapier, personally; the extra width of the gladius is going to tear things up worse, and is more likely to slice something vital.

Except that there are many opponents who the longer blade will pierce deeper and thus the extra length is important. Also, if you classify rapier as a sabre, it has a cutting edge as well as piercing, allowing the user to slash along the entire length of the blade, which is substantially longer than the gladius.

Honestly, if the rapier was initially listed as a 1d6 weapon, I doubt many people would be yelling it should be a d8. It works either way I suppose, but I don't have them anyway as they came about much later in history and don't fit my campaign setting.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I changed what the stats do, mostly to address the discrepancy between saving throws (being unable to hit very high DCs on non-proficient saves, and some saves being much more common than others), but also to reduce ambiguity (particularly between Intelligence and Wisdom, and what exactly a Charisma save is supposed to cover). The end result includes the following:

• All checks are made with a combination of two bonuses.
• PERCEPTION replaces WISDOM, as the linked stat for Survival and Medicine checks.
• MIND replaces INTELLIGENCE, but also covers the aspects of Wisdom that are related to intuition and understanding.
• SPIRIT replaces CHARISMA for the purposes of social skills, but it also takes over for Wisdom in determining divine spell save DC.
• FORTITUDE saves replace Strength saves and Constitution saves. Your Fortitude save bonus is equal to Strength bonus plus Constitution bonus. Proficiency isn't a factor for anyone.
• REFLEX saves replaces all Dexterity saves. Your Reflex bonus is equal to your Dexterity bonus plus your Perception bonus.
• WILL saves replace Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saves. Your Will bonus is equal to your Mind bonus plus your Spirit bonus.
• Initiative is the one exception to the rule about adding two numbers together, since you add Dexterity+Perception+Proficiency.

Specifically for the balance of Dexterity, and to prevent anyone from gaining a bonus while dumping the relevant stat, there's no way to change the following:

• Strength is used to hit with melee weapons. If you're proficient, then you also add your proficiency bonus.
• Dexterity is used to determine your AC. If you're proficient in the armor you're using, then you also add your proficiency bonus to AC. Even in heavy armor.
• Constitution gives you temporary HP, that renew with a short rest. Armor adds to this value, instead of improving AC.
• Perception is used to hit with ranged weapons. If you're proficient, then you also add your proficiency bonus.

Following those rules, you're expected to build certain ways, in order to fit your character concept:

• Fighters can either go Strength/Con, and just accept that you're going to get hit (and nullify much of the damage with your temporary HP); or Strength/Dex, if you want to avoid getting hit in the first place. Most fighters should end up with decent scores in both Dex and Con.
• Monks are a subclass of fighter. They get a bonus to AC when using light armor and no shield, which means they'll probably go the high-Dex and lower-Con route. They're also still proficient with greatswords, so you can go greatsword+headbutt if you don't want to go the flurry route. Monks gain no benefit from Perception, Mind, or Spirit, aside from saving throws and initiative.
• Rogues are intended to fight at range, so Perception is their main stat. They probably want decent Dexterity, because they don't get heavy armor. If you want to play a melee rogue, then you need to invest in Strength.
• Rangers are a subclass of rogue, and don't have any magical powers, so all of the same advice applies to them.

There's more to it, of course. I had to change the weapon table in order to re-balance heavy weapons and light weapons, and that required a complete overhaul of some other numbers. There's nothing like GWM +10 to damage, but the relevant fighting style gives the equivalent of +1d4 at all times. A longsword in two hands is exactly as powerful as a greatsword; but the greatsword is heavy, and there's a feat that gives the equivalent of the barbarian's Reckless Attack, and it only works with heavy weapons. Piercing damage offers a slight benefit over slashing, in terms of better critical hits, but you can't use a rapier in two hands.

If that sounds interesting and you want to learn more, I recommend purchasing Gishes & Goblins at DriveThruRPG.com. I've been holding off on advertising, until the print version is available, but it's already available in digital format.

Are you even playing 5E really? This is way more than I would ever want as a player or DM, but if it works for you that's cool.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Except that there are many opponents who the longer blade will pierce deeper and thus the extra length is important.

Not if you're using the gladius properly. Again, once you get past the first few inches, it makes no difference.

Now, yes, with the longer blade, you're more likely to achieve that full penetration (ahem). But that, in D&D terms, is a matter of hitting, not damage. Plus, again, if we're taking that into account, we also have to take into account the fact that most short swords have much wider--and often thicker--blades than rapiers. Those factors should at least cancel one another out, in broad gaming terms.

Also, if you classify rapier as a sabre...

But why would we do that? They're totally different weapons. The classic sabre is more akin to what D&D calls a scimitar--a curved slashing blade, as opposed to a straight piercing one.