D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 ShielMaster/Crusader worth for tanking?

[emoplato]

What I meant with magic resistance is the Shieldmaster's Shield of the Heart, not the cover. And I'm planning on using the Furious counterstrike and Steely resolve, but wouldn't then my character turn into a Glass Cannon if it realied that much in using them withou armor?, pretty much made emphasis on using maneuvers and stances like thicket of blades and stuff.



Just mentioned the Ring of Evasion since Emoplato said it would help.



Oh I though the maneuver only worked on self, and just planned to get the Cleric multiclassing for countering Kiting, not that much for healing.

1. No, not at all, a glass cannon is someone who can dish out a lot of damage consistently but doesn't have much health or way to get it back. You have several ways to control and heal damage being dealt to you aside from armor. Besides if you can control those in a massive threat area(or beyond remember earth devotion) you could make it so they can't do anything to you or your party.
2. Evasion is an ability to negate area effects if you are successful on a reflex save, if it allows one(most area effects do). Dexterity is your base modifier for reflex saves.
3. No, they can work on anything it designates, mostly its yourself or an enemy. An entire discipline is actually devoted for teamwork abilities, White Raven.

 

[Luka]

Besides if you can control those in a massive threat area(or beyond remember earth devotion) you could make it so they can't do anything to you or your party.

Which book is the Earth Devotion from? it seems pretty awesome

2. Evasion is an ability to negate area effects if you are successful on a reflex save, if it allows one(most area effects do). Dexterity is your base modifier for reflex saves.

So, if Dexterity gives reflex, and Heavy armor blocks it, would a Mithril Full Plate of Speed help for it?

3. No, they can work on anything it designates, mostly its yourself or an enemy. An entire discipline is actually devoted for teamwork abilities, White Raven.

Seen it's maneuvers, it's full of buffs, pretty good for teamwork.

 

[cjosephs1s]

There isn't really a Kiting tactic in D&D. This is strictly a video game thing. If you tried to "Kite" one of a couple things would happen. 1. you could provoke attacks of opportunity from this foe. 2. This foe could lose interest in you and move on to attack someone else and then you would have to reposition yourself (probably provoking an attack of opportunity to do so or at the least only getting a single attack instead of your full attack action plus possible attacks of opportunity that round and endagering other party members).

And you won't be a Glass Cannon with an AC of 29 at level 12. The character I built has an attack of +21 for his best attack which means 2/3 of his attacks have a better than 50% chance to miss an AC of 29 and this Crusader I built has a pretty decent attack bonus. So he is wearing pretty good armor for his level. This build also does make good use of his manuevers and the stance Thicket of Blades. Rarely will any foe you threaten go a round without having to deal with an attack of opportunity from somewhere. His manuevers can either do a decent amount of damage or help heal himself or another party member. There's also the possibility to Trip foes that try to wander off and if you provoke an attack of opportunity for this its ok. Your AC is high and if they hit and do damage then Furious counterstrike just becomes that much more useful next attack. Other than the times when you roll poorly this build can tank very well.

And yes the Ring of Evasion is a good magic item and overall it will help but it appears you didn't look to see how it would help you.

Dexterity is a stat that increases your reflex save. Reflex save = save bonus+Dex mod+magic mod+misc mod+other mods

Heavy armor doesn't "block it". It simply restricts the amount of Dex bonus you can apply to your AC. Making armor out of Mithril does increase the amount of Dex bonus you may apply to your AC based on the armor type. The Speed property for armor grants Haste (as the spell PHB pg 239) 3 times per day. So for a short time, yes it usually will increase your Reflex save by +1 along with other benefits.

Still keep in mind you dont' want your AC too high. If you become unhittalbe you lose the advantage of Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike which are nice just for getting hit and taking damage. As I stated when I posted the build an AC of 29 might be too high as it is to really take advantage of this to its full potential anyway. I could have easily raised his AC by a lot but chose not to in order to take advantage of these two class features which are nice.

 

[Luka]

There isn't really a Kiting tactic in D&D. This is strictly a video game thing. If you tried to "Kite" one of a couple things would happen. 1. you could provoke attacks of opportunity from this foe. 2. This foe could lose interest in you and move on to attack someone else and then you would have to reposition yourself (probably provoking an attack of opportunity to do so or at the least only getting a single attack instead of your full attack action plus possible attacks of opportunity that round and endagering other party members).

Now would kiting be trouble if the one kiting is a single enemy against the party or a solo member?

Heavy armor doesn't "block it". It simply restricts the amount of Dex bonus you can apply to your AC. Making armor out of Mithril does increase the amount of Dex bonus you may apply to your AC based on the armor type. The Speed property for armor grants Haste (as the spell PHB pg 239) 3 times per day. So for a short time, yes it usually will increase your Reflex save by +1 along with other benefits.

So, for a tank would be worth to get a Mithril Full plate of speed for more AC and haste?

Still keep in mind you dont' want your AC too high. If you become unhittalbe you lose the advantage of Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike which are nice just for getting hit and taking damage. As I stated when I posted the build an AC of 29 might be too high as it is to really take advantage of this to its full potential anyway. I could have easily raised his AC by a lot but chose not to in order to take advantage of these two class features which are nice.

Wouldn't just unwield the Tower Shield reduce the AC for getting the Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike to work? I mean, sometimes I may end up wanting the Invulnerability, but when needing to hit hard would reduce it.

 

[cjosephs1s]

Why would you ever "kite" a single foe in combat? Just stand there and beat him down. Then use attacks of opportunity from Countersrike bracers. Why move if he's not? Let other party members move. Your job is to control the foe. If hes happy just standing there attacking you, then he's controlled and your doing your job.

Mithril full plate is nice but once again as I said you dont' want your AC too high. Speed is nice but there are better magic items for gaining haste than this armor property.

Why have a shield if all you're going to do is drop it most of the time? Just use a nice big 2h weapon and do more damage if that's the case. And you won't need the "invulnerability" as you call it. If you are really in that bad of a situation there are other magic items that can help you out of it that are better suited for those now and then circumstances. And if you want to reduce AC that much then simply change the gear you buy so your AC is lower. Resources aren't unlimited. You can't have everything so you have to choose.

 

[Luka]

Why would you ever "kite" a single foe in combat? Just stand there and beat him down. Then use attacks of opportunity from Countersrike bracers. Why move if he's not? Let other party members move. Your job is to control the foe. If hes happy just standing there attacking you, then he's controlled and your doing your job.

noooo I mean if the foe's kiting me with magic when I'm alone, if I'm with the party then they would take it down, but when solo dunno, heavy repeating crossbow?

Mithril full plate is nice but once again as I said you dont' want your AC too high. Speed is nice but there are better magic items for gaining haste than this armor property.

So it would be better to get it when more AC's needed then?

Why have a shield if all you're going to do is drop it most of the time? Just use a nice big 2h weapon and do more damage if that's the case. And you won't need the "invulnerability" as you call it. If you are really in that bad of a situation there are other magic items that can help you out of it that are better suited for those now and then circumstances. And if you want to reduce AC that much then simply change the gear you buy so your AC is lower. Resources aren't unlimited. You can't have everything so you have to choose.

I think I said previously I hate 2 handed weapons, I like longswords and shields, and as far I know, don't enemies get ethereal and that sort after lvl 12? so wouldn't a Sword of the Planes work out against them?, though would've using a meteor hammer for threatening enemies around. and as far I know, changing gear is pretty troublesome, and don't wanna lack AC in case of random huge monster popping out.

 

[Dandu]

noooo I mean if the foe's kiting me with magic when I'm alone, if I'm with the party then they would take it down, but when solo dunno, heavy repeating crossbow?

I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

noooo I mean if the foe's kiting me with magic when I'm alone, if I'm with the party then they would take it down, but when solo dunno, heavy repeating crossbow?

Why would you be alone?
Why would you solo?
Please give up the idea of the repeating Crossbow. It is not a good idea for a weapon.

Are you familiar with how Attacks of Opportunity works? If you try to move away from someone, they get to hit you. If you try to move past someone, they get to hit you. If they have the feat Combat Reflexes, they get to hit you a few times.

Because of these rules, "Tanking" involves setting up chances to hit your opponent alot, not simply soaking up the enemy's attacks.

Having a reach weapon increases the range at which you can hit opponents. This is why attacking, not defending, controls enemies.

 

[cjosephs1s]

1. How would someone "kite' you with magic? And no..dont' use ranged weapons. Crusaders are melee builds and have almost no business even owning them. And if a monster is that tough, run. But odds are your DM isn't going to put you against monsters that will flat out kill you.

2. This is where understanding of the game really comes into play. This is why you're having a hard time grasping this "AC balance" concept. Its much less costly to add AC to a character than to take it away. So its kind of a balancing act between being at that point where you get hit just enough, with just enough damage, to keep Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike up and almost maxed or maxed all the time. This is where experience of playing the game will come in. And that's why I was hoping for some feedback on where my AC stood. I think the AC is fine where it is and if it progresses normally throughout 20 levels it should be a decent balance. If more is needed then spend the money to switch out armor to an equivalant Mithril Full Plate. If even more is needed, then look into items that give Natural Armor bonuses. If even more is needed look into items that give spell like buffs to AC. But once again this is a balancing act and its cheaper to buy more AC than to lose AC.

3. This is why I went with a 1h weapon and shield build. So it meets the requirement of not having a 2h weapon. Ethereal creatures can show up at just about any level. Thats why I gave the weapon a slot for an Augment Crystal (look in the Magic Item Compendium for these items and their rules). There are also weapon properties to counter etherialness but the Augment Crystals are better solutions as they aren't permanant enchants and can be switched out for different situations.

Sword of the Planes doesn't work well for that. It just gives a bigger enhancement bonus when you and the sword are on a different plane or against creatures from a different plane as specified by the description. Ethereal creatures are on the Ethereal plane and have a base 50% miss chance with magic weapons. Sword of the planes doesn't counter this miss chance. Look up the Ghost touch property to better understand what it takes to hit Etheral creatures.

 

[Luka]

Why would you be alone?
Why would you solo?

Usual Leeroy Jenkins rush, anything random that separates me from everybody, last man standing, or something that leaves me alone.

Are you familiar with how Attacks of Opportunity works? If you try to move away from someone, they get to hit you. If you try to move past someone, they get to hit you. If they have the feat Combat Reflexes, they get to hit you a few times.

Even if they're far away where I don't threaten?