4th Edition Red Wizards

[Rel]

Don't make me come in here.

 

[Mirtek]

If the DMG states that a level 7 Brute should have approximately 70 HPs, is that random?

Well, if the DMG states that a level 7 brute should have AC 23 and thus a level 7 human brute has AC 23 even if he's only wearing leather armor which whould give any human PC only AC 18 I call it random.

 

[DandD]

Well, if the DMG states that a level 7 brute should have AC 23 and thus a level 7 human brute has AC 23 even if he's only wearing leather armor which whould give any human PC only AC 18 I call it random.

Then you didn't follow the guideline they gave out and gave the hypothetical human brute a lower AC than was proposed, so it's all up to you and not the game rules.

 

[Rel]

Well, if the DMG states that a level 7 brute should have AC 23 and thus a level 7 human brute has AC 23 even if he's only wearing leather armor which whould give any human PC only AC 18 I call it random.

Could such a situation be explained in other ways besides simple randomness? Perhaps a level 7 Brute has an AC of 23 due to a combination of armor, good reflexes and the fact that he's been in a lot of scraps over the years and some attacks that would strike hard at a level 3 Brute just don't bother him like they used to.

I think that the underlying point of this concept is that for some NPC's you really care about the nitty gritty details of precisely why they are so hard to hurt, how much damage they deal, etc. For the rank and file "extras" that the PC's beat up along the way, a higher level of abstraction is ok.

 

[Mirtek]

Then you didn't follow the guideline they gave out and gave the hypothetical human brute a lower AC than was proposed, so it's all up to you and not the game rules.

No, the point is that the guideline does not follow the same rules for NPC than for PC. If the level 7 brute can get AC 23 no matter what armor he is wearing, just because he happens to be a level 7 bute and AC 23 is what a level 7 brute is supposed to have, then why does a level 7 PC need to put on plate armor to get the same AC and can't just have AC 23 naked just like the level 7 human brute?

Could such a situation be explained in other ways besides simple randomness?

In a former interview they have already told that things like AC are assigned according to level and role and not according to equipment like the PC's.

As a fighter in full plate I am fed up with NPCs of my race getting an equal AC bonus just because of their role/level despite wearing clearly inferior armor

 

[Jack99]

Don't make me come in here.

I guess we have failed, since you have posted since...

 

[small pumpkin man]

Well, if the DMG states that a level 7 brute should have AC 23 and thus a level 7 human brute has AC 23 even if he's only wearing leather armor which whould give any human PC only AC 18 I call it random.

Brutes have low AC, it's Soldiers that have high AC, "Soldier" will often imply specific training and heavy armour. If you want to show specific examples that's fine, but spreading FUD achieves nothing.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Man, I remember beating on some random bandit for 5 minutes before finally managing to kill him. That was one wacky system.

A new CRPG is coming. I hope it works better on PC then on "pen & paper". Generally, the Dark Eye / Das Schwarze Auge is a interesting setting, comparable to Eberron or Forgotten Realms. But the game rules never were that great. (They might be above AD&D or other early editions of OD&D, at least if you see a consistent skill system as an important part of game rules. )

Well, if the DMG states that a level 7 brute should have AC 23 and thus a level 7 human brute has AC 23 even if he's only wearing leather armor which whould give any human PC only AC 18 I call it random.

That's not random. The rules state that he should have an AC of 23. At worst, it's inconsistent. But look at 3.x monster stats - how many monsters (especially outsiders) seem to have totally arbitrary natural armor bonus! Where do they come from? Well, the answer is, the designers followed some implicit guidelines that a monster of that CR needs to have this armor class. Even if it's just a large, winged humanoid, it needs that AC, the inability to wear armor be damned!

From what I saw so far, the 4E monster seem to be pretty consistent in their statistics. The 1/2 level bonus to Defenses and AC helps a lot. The rest can be done with setting ability scores, and adding equipment as appropriate.

(That might be the real weakness in your example - nobody knows if there are any Level 7 Brute Humanoids with an AC of 23 that can't be explained by its individual statistics.)

If you see a "Brute" or "Soldier" as a type of monster class (very similar to the 3E type HD), you will probably see enough hard rules that can explain all monster statistics. The role provides (possibly level dependend) benefits to certain attacks or defenses, and different HP by level, just like a class.

 

[Mirtek]

But look at 3.x monster stats - how many monsters (especially outsiders) seem to have totally arbitrary natural armor bonus! Where do they come from? Well, the answer is, the designers followed some implicit guidelines that a monster of that CR needs to have this armor class. Even if it's just a large, winged humanoid, it needs that AC, the inability to wear armor be damned!

However a PC of the same race would get the same AC bonus.

A human NPC has the same base AC than a human PC. If the NPC needs to attain a certain AC, he needs to attain it through exactly the same meassure a human PC needs. He doesn't just get a +6 NPC-Role-Bonus and suddenly his leatherarmor get him the same AC bonus than the PC's fullplate

 

[Dausuul]

No, the point is that the guideline does not follow the same rules for NPC than for PC. If the level 7 brute can get AC 23 no matter what armor he is wearing, just because he happens to be a level 7 bute and AC 23 is what a level 7 brute is supposed to have, then why does a level 7 PC need to put on plate armor to get the same AC and can't just have AC 23 naked just like the level 7 human brute?

Because the brute spent more time training his defensive skills than the PC did.

Moreover, I'm fairly certain that the brute's AC is in fact armor-dependent; it's just that you pick the final AC and what armor you want him to wear, then reverse-engineer his "naked" AC from that. The target AC for a level 7 brute is (hypothetically) 23. Whether you get to that by giving him leather armor and a naked AC of 22, or by giving him full plate and naked AC 15, is entirely up to you.