4th Edition Red Wizards

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

No, the point is that the guideline does not follow the same rules for NPC than for PC. If the level 7 brute can get AC 23 no matter what armor he is wearing, just because he happens to be a level 7 bute and AC 23 is what a level 7 brute is supposed to have, then why does a level 7 PC need to put on plate armor to get the same AC and can't just have AC 23 naked just like the level 7 human brute?

Use the class analogy. Going back to 3.0. A Level 9 Rogue is supposed to have a base Reflex Save of +6. Why can't a Level 9 Fighter not have the same value? The answer is simple - he's not a Rogue.

A player character is not a brute. That's why he doesn't have the same abilities and numerical values. He can reach some of them, but he needs to do something differen.t

You could also see it as a kind of "meta-rule", instead of using the class analogy. Levels are probably not intended to be "tangible" aspects of characters. Levels and Role are a metaconcept to describe certain aspects. To classify as a "level 7 brute", a monster needs certain statistics. It doesn't matter how it reaches the, but if it has this statistics, it's a level 7 brute. If you give it a AC 5 points lower, it's not a level 7 brute.
Two car engines can have the same Horse Powers, despite being of different design, one using diesel, the other using regualr gas, and a third relying on hydrogen cells.

 

[hong]

3E : beholder paladin :: 4E : NPC AC

 

[Rel]

As a fighter in full plate I am fed up with NPCs of my race getting an equal AC bonus just because of their role/level despite wearing clearly inferior armor

I think that this playstyle is perfectly fine. I used to be of a very similar mindset and viewed one of the primary strengths of 3.X D&D as the fact that the same rules were used for everybody. Over the years however I've determined that this was putting a lot of extra work on the GM (frequently me) and that when I used more abstract methods and systems that I felt just fine about it. So I'm not upset that 4e is headed in that direction.

I guess we have failed, since you have posted since...

What can I say? This is more interesting than working on my taxes.

 

[HeinorNY]

Could such a situation be explained in other ways besides simple randomness? Perhaps a level 7 Brute has an AC of 23 due to a combination of armor, good reflexes and the fact that he's been in a lot of scraps over the years and some attacks that would strike hard at a level 3 Brute just don't bother him like they used to.

And feats.
NPCs have feats, they just don't appear on their stats since we don't have to care about them . They are the insvisible NPC feats.
Depending on the monster, it could be just "natural armor" or tough skin.

 

[Starbuck_II]

However a PC of the same race would get the same AC bonus.

A human NPC has the same base AC than a human PC. If the NPC needs to attain a certain AC, he needs to attain it through exactly the same meassure a human PC needs. He doesn't just get a +6 NPC-Role-Bonus and suddenly his leatherarmor get him the same AC bonus than the PC's fullplate

Untrue, only if the PC was a higther level than the NPC: remember you had LA in 3.5.

If 4.0 has the 1/2 Level to AC rule than you could have lower AC compared to same level NPC and it makes sense because you have virtual LA.

If you had no issue with the metagame concept of LA in 3.5, than you shouldn't have a problem in 4.0.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Well, if the DMG states that a level 7 brute should have AC 23 and thus a level 7 human brute has AC 23 even if he's only wearing leather armor which whould give any human PC only AC 18 I call it random.

I believe the word you are looking for is arbitrary. As others have stated, 3E and 4E have seemingly arbitrary values for monsters to make the math come out right for the sweet spot. I would argue that it's not arbitrary since the reason is to have fun. If ACs at a certain value for a specific level equals fun, then I don't care how they arrived at the numbers.

Derek

 

[drjones]

No, most NPCs are just slapped together randomly so that they provide a challenge for PCs. No rules, no classes.

Well ignoring the utter lack of any evidence that NPC monsters are 'slapped together' with 'no rules' and your cranky tone what is the problem with that?

A NPC exists in the game for some reason, to be beat up, to provide flavor, to give the DM an excuse to use a funny accent, whatever. They only need what tools it takes to make that happen. If the person designing an NPC knows that they are supposed to some kind of evil wizard with lots of kick ass powers then who gives a flip if he is a fully stated out with PC class levels or a generic balanced 'monster' with appropriate powers added. From the POV of the players THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

The only thing making all PC race NPCs require PC class levels would provide is to give Anal Retentive Rules Nuts something to complain about when an official product gives some mook bandit 1 too many skill points in Knowledge: Bass Fishing. I realize this is a major loss for the ARRN for which I am deeply sorry.

 

[robertliguori]

Use the class analogy. Going back to 3.0. A Level 9 Rogue is supposed to have a base Reflex Save of +6. Why can't a Level 9 Fighter not have the same value? The answer is simple - he's not a Rogue.

A player character is not a brute. That's why he doesn't have the same abilities and numerical values. He can reach some of them, but he needs to do something differen.t

You could also see it as a kind of "meta-rule", instead of using the class analogy. Levels are probably not intended to be "tangible" aspects of characters. Levels and Role are a metaconcept to describe certain aspects. To classify as a "level 7 brute", a monster needs certain statistics. It doesn't matter how it reaches the, but if it has this statistics, it's a level 7 brute. If you give it a AC 5 points lower, it's not a level 7 brute.
Two car engines can have the same Horse Powers, despite being of different design, one using diesel, the other using regualr gas, and a third relying on hydrogen cells.

One little mental paradigm shift I've personally found helpful to assuage my simulationist tendencies is to make roles descriptive, not creative. That is to say, there are creatures, and certain creatures have abilities, powers, stats, etc., and that the sum of these stats produces a level and a role.

So, you've got your Chull, and your Chull Dreadnought elite soldier. The abilities of the Chull Dreadnought make it well-suited for tactical challenges at a certain power level of play, but the Chull Dreadnought is itself, whether it's serving as a walking engine of irrestible doom for an army of minions, a preparation-requiring solo for paragons, a soldier for epics, a minion against char-opt characters, an environmental hazard against prepared epics, and so on and so forth.

On that note, I'd really like to get enough crunch from the leveling system to abandon the classes and go pure point-buy. If we can get a table telling us that a level X challenge should have set stats, we should certainly see the same thing for PCs; if nothing else, this will serve as a check on one-trick wonder characters. I think that D&D should adopt the Mutants and Masterminds model; a level N character is a character with the ability to perform certain actions at N[action] level, regardless of the actual amount of resources put into achieving N-level competence.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

However a PC of the same race would get the same AC bonus.

A human NPC has the same base AC than a human PC. If the NPC needs to attain a certain AC, he needs to attain it through exactly the same meassure a human PC needs. He doesn't just get a +6 NPC-Role-Bonus and suddenly his leatherarmor get him the same AC bonus than the PC's fullplate

I don´t expect it that arbitrary... +6 role bonus is a bit much at least at low level.... however: today it worked quite well using really arbitrary numbers (had no time to prepare, and it still worked quite well, just using some base 4e mechanics (defenses, aving throw ends or fail increases effect, conditions trigger extra effects)

 

[Kishin]

He is a NPC, he has no class. His stats will probably be of an epic level controller leader.

Not all NPCs are classless.

This has been said innumerable times by developers.

You can still build NPCs as classed characters.

I'm starting to think about putting together a fund to have this skywritten in major cities throughout the world the day 4E releases.