D&D 5E 5e completely nerfed charm - for YOU, anyway

[Imaculata]

I always presumed this is a dominate: [video=youtube;JTmvM79U9sE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTmvM79U9sE[/video]

But I suppose lesser vampires, as described in the Monster Manual, simply cause you to look favorable upon them, which is far less obvious. It allows them to be more subtle. Your own friends would not behave out of the ordinary, but would discourage you from attacking this guy who couldn't possibly be a vampire.

I have no problems with the changes to the spells. I think its far more fun in combat to have effects that don't last all day. Combat doesn't last all day, so why should an offensive spell?

And its not like the changes to the player-version of the Charm spell make it completely useless. That wasn't the point. Yes, monsters behave by different rules than players. That has always been the case.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Friends lasts only a minute and immediately makes the target hostile. The whole purpose of using the spell is to get around using violence to get what you want. If the target becomes hostile in a minute, especially in any urban situation, then you are going to have to knock them out or kill them anyway so what was the point of using the spell? The AD&D version of the spell at least improved the duration as the caster gained levels.

Hostile doesn't inherently mean violent. If anyone's seen 'Jessica Jones' on Netflix, I think it shows a pretty strong representation of the Friends spell. Killgrave could get anyone to do what he wanted, but after an hour away from him the effect wore off and the person knew exactly what had happened to them and what they did while under his control. All of them were disgusted with what happened (and would be considered "hostile" to Killgrave after the fact), but none of them immediately went crazy to chase him down and try to kill him. Mainly because he either was already gone or they just didn't have the type of attitude that devolved into violence (many were just freaked out about what they were forced to do.)

If you used Friends to get a shopkeeper to sell you an item for a discounted rate, and a minute later after you left he'd realize what you did to him and be royally pissed off (and would probably yell and scream at you if you showed your face in his shop again) but he wouldn't automatically grab a weapon to try and kill you. He *might* if he was that kind of person and knew you charmed him... but it isn't a guarantee.

 

[seebs]

I'm not talking anything bad. Just a love stab, it'll barely pierce his heart. If that much kills him, I am not sure I want him as a friend anyway.

If you'd been consistently stabbing friends in the heart throughout the campaign, I might allow it.

 

[Staffan]

Yes, the discrepancy between monsters charming PCs and PCs charming monsters is definitely a new thing that's never been the case in any edition before. Oh, wait:

It's just that it was hidden elsewhere back in the day.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So, cast with a 9th level slot, Dominate Person lasts 1/3 as long as a vampire's charm, requires concentration, and the target gets a new save every time it takes damage. So, what level spell would a vampire's charm be? 15th? Lol. And it's an at-will ability.

This is just egregiously bad. Just screaming to be house-ruled.

Conclusion: 9th level Dominate Person is spelled T-R-U-E P-O-L-Y-M-O-R-P-H.

 

[Morlock]

No discussing moderation in-thread. If you feel there's a point to be made, please take ti to e-mail or PM with a moderator or admin.

 

[CapnZapp]

it's just much too effective for players to have.

You nailed it. Nothing more to add. Everything works as intended.

Moving along.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Hostile doesn't inherently mean violent. If anyone's seen 'Jessica Jones' on Netflix, I think it shows a pretty strong representation of the Friends spell. Killgrave could get anyone to do what he wanted, but after an hour away from him the effect wore off and the person knew exactly what had happened to them and what they did while under his control. All of them were disgusted with what happened (and would be considered "hostile" to Killgrave after the fact), but none of them immediately went crazy to chase him down and try to kill him. Mainly because he either was already gone or they just didn't have the type of attitude that devolved into violence (many were just freaked out about what they were forced to do.)

If you used Friends to get a shopkeeper to sell you an item for a discounted rate, and a minute later after you left he'd realize what you did to him and be royally pissed off (and would probably yell and scream at you if you showed your face in his shop again) but he wouldn't automatically grab a weapon to try and kill you. He *might* if he was that kind of person and knew you charmed him... but it isn't a guarantee.

I'm not talking about violence with regard to hostility really. What I mean is that there aren't any spells that enable subtle manipulation over time beyond a single encounter.

Effects such as the charming city officials to get them to do things for you over the course of days or even weeks. That kind of thing. The whole focus of magic is very encounter-centric.

 

[feartheminotaur]

I always consider 'monster' abilities this way: The expectation is 1 'big bad' versus multiple PCs (with minions sprinkled in to offset level/number of PCs). So, not a big surprise Dracula is more powerful than a single PC?

The question mark is because, I guess, that's actually a debate for some - asking how is it that a 10k XP foe (so, a deadly encounter for 4 9th level PCs who can cast dominate person or deadly encounter for single 19th level PC who can cast wish) is somehow more powerful than the individual PCs. Or to be more specific - asking how one feature of a 10k XP foe is more powerful than a single, similar-ish spell among the dozens of spells and features available to multiple PCs

I'm sorry, but if that's the underlying premise, you're never going to get the answer you want. I mean, you are free to craft your own, just don't get upset if we don't all fall all over ourselves agreeing with you. Other posters will confirm your bias, but, no everyone is going to agree that one of Dracula (or Strahd, or whoever) should be on par with a single 9th level PC.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'm not talking about violence with regard to hostility really. What I mean is that there aren't any spells that enable subtle manipulation over time beyond a single encounter.

Effects such as the charming city officials to get them to do things for you over the course of days or even weeks. That kind of thing. The whole focus of magic is very encounter-centric.

So rather than brute forcing anything remotely resembling intrigue via magical mind control, players might occasionally have to dig deep and come up with something approximating cleverness? No offense, but I hardly see that as a bad thing. Magic is fine as a aid, but it shouldn't be the solution to every problem. Mind-control is potent enough as is without having to worry about it lasting for an indefinite period of time. Racing against the clock, as in the one hour time limit of Charm Person, can be a wonderful catalyst for player creativity. IMO, the real magic in this game happens most often when the players don't rely on magic as a crutch.