Base Classes

[IcyCool]

1) The marshal lacks the diversity of skills and skill points of the bard as well as the spellcasting ability. Also, with the various bard feats from ECS and CV (proposed elsewhere) it is very unlikely that the marshal will at all replace the bard.

The new feats might make a bard a more viable choice, but as a party booster, it will be hard to compete. I'm not saying the Marshal shouldn't be included, just that it edges in on the Bard's turf. And the Bard doesn't have much turf to begin with.

2) The Chilling Tentacles invocation is unlikely to end every encounter, by that level creatures will often times have large grapple checks, perhaps ranks in escape artist, and resistance to cold or even immunity. It is also ineffective against incorporeal creatures. The average cold damage is 7 per round, not very much for CR 11 creatures. It is also 4 levels later than a wizard gains access to evard's black tentacles.

+19 to grapple. I'll admit I haven't looked in the SRD for CR 11-15 critters, but are there really that many that can even come close to matching that? If there are plenty, then I suppose the point is moot. The primary benefit of it is immobilizing foes so that they can be picked off at range. The cold damage is negligible. I had forgotten incorporeal creatures.

I should also say that I like the warlock, and hope it is voted in.

 

[Rystil Arden]

+19 to grapple

Remember that Base Attack is added into every Grapple check, and most creatures have more HD than their CR. I pulled a random monster out of the SRD until I hit the right CR range and got Iron Golem, +28 to Grapple (CR 13). Then I did it again and got Vrock, +20 to Grapple (CR 9). The third time I got Ghaele Eladrin, which only had +17 to grapple (CR 13), but it's a wimpy little thing with tons of spell-like abilities, so that's to be expected. Then I hit Red Dragon, and the CR 13 one has +37 (even the CR 7 has +24)

 

[Ferrix]

Remember that Base Attack is added into every Grapple check, and most creatures have more HD than their CR. I pulled a random monster out of the SRD until I hit the right CR range and got Iron Golem, +28 to Grapple (CR 13). Then I did it again and got Vrock, +20 to Grapple (CR 9). The third time I got Ghaele Eladrin, which only had +17 to grapple (CR 13), but it's a wimpy little thing with tons of spell-like abilities, so that's to be expected. Then I hit Red Dragon, and the CR 13 one has +37 (even the CR 7 has +24)

I did some checking, but it looks like RA beat me to posting up info. Alot of the CR 10-12 creatures have grapple checks usually a good deal of +20. So, I don't think it's that much of a problem.

 

[Ferrix]

The new feats might make a bard a more viable choice, but as a party booster, it will be hard to compete. I'm not saying the Marshal shouldn't be included, just that it edges in on the Bard's turf. And the Bard doesn't have much turf to begin with.

While the marshal makes an effective party booster, the bard makes a much better face and social character while at the same time being a solid party booster.

The bard can be played to many different tunes, more than most people think I imagine, which the marshal cannot even mimic.

I don't think the marshal intrudes significantly upon the bard's ability to boost the party what with the available feats (particularly Song of the Heart).

The marshal has to wait till 2nd level to grant a bonus to attack or damage rolls with a major aura, while the bard can grant a bonus to both attack and damage rolls at 1st levels (one that is often times higher). Also, while the marshal's minor auras are based off of their charisma modifier, they only apply to much narrower areas than most of the bard abilities.

The only ability that the marshal has over the bard is the ability to grant larger bonuses to saves and ability checks.

 

[Knight Otu]

+19 to grapple. I'll admit I haven't looked in the SRD for CR 11-15 critters, but are there really that many that can even come close to matching that? If there are plenty, then I suppose the point is moot. The primary benefit of it is immobilizing foes so that they can be picked off at range. The cold damage is negligible. I had forgotten incorporeal creatures.

I should also say that I like the warlock, and hope it is voted in.

CR 11 creatures:
Air Elemental, Elder +32
Demon, Hezrou +19
Demon, Retriever +25
Devil, Barbed (Hamatula) +22
Devourer +19
Earth Elemental, Elder +37
Fire Elemental, Elder +32
Giant, Cloud +32
Golem, Stone +23
Hydra, Twelve-Headed +26
Water Elemental, Elder +35
Wraith, Dread Incorporeal

I guess the invocation is nice, but not necessarily a game-breaker. Against NPCs, though, it likely fares better.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yes, as Ferrix said.

I'll put it a different way: having a Bard is worse than having some other class that's actually useful in any given situation, and the Bard will be weighing down the party. But that's a given for a Bard. However, the Bard, if built correctly, will only weigh the party down slightly because while they are worse than a normal PC class at doing things, they aren't too much worse. But the Marshal is that much worse. Unless you are doing something related to the Marshal's selected Minor Auras (which are much MORE powerful than the major auras, by the way, despite the name), the Marshal is totally worthless. When you are, which usually isn't often, the Marshal is very helpful for the round when you do it, and then she fades back to being completely worthless.

All in all, the Marshal isn't really a threat to the Bard's important position of 'a poor choice for a party member, but people can at least convince themselves that it isn't'.

 

[Ferrix]

Yes, as Ferrix said.

I'll put it a different way: having a Bard is worse than having some other class that's actually useful in any given situation, and the Bard will be weighing down the party. But that's a given for a Bard. However, the Bard, if built correctly, will only weigh the party down slightly because while they are worse than a normal PC class at doing things, they aren't too much worse. But the Marshal is that much worse. Unless you are doing something related to the Marshal's selected Minor Auras (which are much MORE powerful than the major auras, by the way, despite the name), the Marshal is totally worthless. When you are, which usually isn't often, the Marshal is very helpful for the round when you do it, and then she fades back to being completely worthless.

All in all, the Marshal isn't really a threat to the Bard's important position of 'a poor choice for a party member, but people can at least convince themselves that it isn't'.

Well put RA.

 

[IcyCool]

I'd like to see more discussion before I vote these in.

Mission accomplished.

 

[Patlin]

Not familiar with the Marshall -- you mention auras, is it much like the Divine Mind? All the other ones seem fine to me.

 

[stonegod]

Not familiar with the Marshall -- you mention auras, is it much like the Divine Mind? All the other ones seem fine to me.

They are similar to the Dragon Shaman's auras, IIRC---buffing effects in a limited radius.