d20 Modern: What Would you change part II

[jonrog1]

I prefer generic classes to, but attribute-based rater than action-based classes just rub me the wrong way. For me, it's more useful to have a combat class than strong/Fast/Tank classes that force you to multclass weirdly. Or at least more natural.

Fightin' guy
Knowin' Guy
Charming Guy
Powers Guy

or some such.

 

[Vigilance]

I prefer generic classes to, but attribute-based rater than action-based classes just rub me the wrong way. For me, it's more useful to have a combat class than strong/Fast/Tank classes that force you to multclass weirdly. Or at least more natural.

Fightin' guy
Knowin' Guy
Charming Guy
Powers Guy

or some such.

Each of the classes will have a strength mechanically. Muscle (BAB), Speed (Defense), Tank (HP), Brains (Skill Points), Empath (saving throws), Star (Reputation)

Just saying "fightin guy" doesn't work for me. Why can't you have a "fightin guy" who's hard to hit and one who shrugs off damage, while another is really good at pressing the attack?

Sounds like Nightcrawler, Colossus and Wolverine to me.

Since this game is almost FX free, multiple fighting and skill roles are essential. One problem (one of the few) I have with True 20 is how if you want to run historically based games without magic, you're down to two roles.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Which works alright, as well.

Right now we've got:

"Melee Fightin' Guy"
and
"Damage Takin' Guy"
and
"Not Gettin' Hit Guy"

all rounding out the Fightin' Guy ... which may or may not be valuable, since it allows for some gradiation that one Fightin' Guy may not have. If Fightin' Guy has full BAB progression AND better than average Defense progression AND more hit points, etc etc. How does he balance out while allowing you to run those archetypes?

Though if everything including BAB is a skill that can alleviate that somewhat, but I have not found that to ever work in the past. Prior games have tried to make weapons individual skills and it just tends to break down.

--fje

 

[Vigilance]

Though if everything including BAB is a skill that can alleviate that somewhat, but I have not found that to ever work in the past. Prior games have tried to make weapons individual skills and it just tends to break down.

--fje

Yeah, I didn't go that far. I have some combat skills that provide other benefits, but you're still determining your attack roll from BAB vs. class-based Defense.

 

[EditorBFG]

Each of the classes will have a strength mechanically. Muscle (BAB), Speed (Defense), Tank (HP), Brains (Skill Points), Empath (saving throws), Star (Reputation)

Well, having expressed my opinions on Modern classes, I understand why you might think you need them. While I'd rather have no classes at all, it seems like Saving Throw guy and Reputation guy are two roles that suck. Couldn't you roll good saves into Defense guy (or HP guy), and make Reputation/social stuff a function of skills?

Just as in d20, the bottom three ability scores are most often "dump stats", I think the classes based on them are likely to end up the red-headed stepchildren.

Part of the problem with Modern was, only a couple of the base classes were attractive options. If you have to have these kind of separate roles, then at least they should all be cool.

 

[Vigilance]

Part of the problem with Modern was, only a couple of the base classes were attractive options. If you have to have these kind of separate roles, then at least they should all be cool.

Well, making sure all the roles are cool is where I earn my money

I will say I don't think Reputation guy will suck at all. I can understand why you might think he will, but this isn't going to be the d20M version of reputation. Reputation will give real and tangible benefits.

 

[Aussiegamer]

one of the problems that exists is that you seem to still be forced into a narrow class driven outcome for a PC.

I dumped cross skills, feats for this class as free at this level.

By opening up the class system you can develop a character that you want to make, instead of forced to make.

And use burst was bad, and I fixed it for me.

 

[Vigilance]

By opening up the class system you can develop a character that you want to make, instead of forced to make.

Eh, I disagree. A game with 6 classes, dozens of backgrounds, even more occupations, feats at every level (allowing you to effectively choose your own class abilities) and hobbies is far from a limiting character design system.

Just because there are classes does not mean character choice is limited.

I've ran class-less games, for years in fact (both GURPs and Hero). I greatly prefer class-based games.

 

[jonrog1]

Each of the classes will have a strength mechanically. Muscle (BAB), Speed (Defense), Tank (HP), Brains (Skill Points), Empath (saving throws), Star (Reputation)

Just saying "fightin guy" doesn't work for me. Why can't you have a "fightin guy" who's hard to hit and one who shrugs off damage, while another is really good at pressing the attack?

Sounds like Nightcrawler, Colossus and Wolverine to me.

Since this game is almost FX free, multiple fighting and skill roles are essential. One problem (one of the few) I have with True 20 is how if you want to run historically based games without magic, you're down to two roles.

I see your point stylistically, but we're actually on the same page -- I DO want a fightin' guy that hits hard, is hard to hit, and take a punch. But I don't see why stylistic differences in fighting should be the bases for different classes.

I think what I'm probably burned a little by is the weird BAB choice in d20M. So I want to make a vicious gunslinger, who's therefore FAST, but he therefore doesn't get the same BAB as a Melee guy? Assuming all fighting guys are equally as efficient at some base level and then can be customized -- or are then customized by your classes -- to fighting style (melee/rangd/tank) then I dig it. otherwise, I kind of agree that you're shackling your very good design onto some of the mistakes of the previous designers.

The True20 notes is indicative of something MOST people seem to miss in True20 -- paths. I always approach True20 not as "I am limited to two roles", but rather "I have an infinite number of easily tuneable fighter classes, without forcing anyone into 'multiclassing'." I think the toolkit aspect of True20 hides the actual structure paths bring -- when one looks at any of the setting books, on the other hand, including BLUE ROSE, one sees those "classes" coalesce nicely. What True20 could use are some more "path" books. I'm actually working on a pdf idea now, between writing gigs, for "pulp" paths.

 

[Vigilance]

I see your point stylistically, but we're actually on the same page -- I DO want a fightin' guy that hits hard, is hard to hit, and take a punch. But I don't see why stylistic differences in fighting should be the bases for different classes.

I think what I'm probably burned a little by is the weird BAB choice in d20M. So I want to make a vicious gunslinger, who's therefore FAST, but he therefore doesn't get the same BAB as a Melee guy? Assuming all fighting guys are equally as efficient at some base level and then can be customized -- or are then customized by your classes -- to fighting style (melee/rangd/tank) then I dig it. otherwise, I kind of agree that you're shackling your very good design onto some of the mistakes of the previous designers.

The True20 notes is indicative of something MOST people seem to miss in True20 -- paths. I always approach True20 not as "I am limited to two roles", but rather "I have an infinite number of easily tuneable fighter classes, without forcing anyone into 'multiclassing'." I think the toolkit aspect of True20 hides the actual structure paths bring -- when one looks at any of the setting books, on the other hand, including BLUE ROSE, one sees those "classes" coalesce nicely. What True20 could use are some more "path" books. I'm actually working on a pdf idea now, between writing gigs, for "pulp" paths.

Well, again, Im using the basic structure of True 20 in terms of a feat per level for a lot of customizability.

Im not sure why 6 mechanical frameworks to customize bothers you when 2, or 3 doesn't.

.