DnD 3.5 - Valley of the Dead

[Shayuri]

The issue of course being that the powers of Warshaper are very strong...they're meant to be balanced by only applying while in a form different than your natural one. But a changeling can maintain a different form indefinitely, and nothing short of death or specific effects that expose shapeshifters will stop it.

That's the argument as I understand it at least.

Right now I'm looking at a Chelixian rogue with that "tiefling lite" background for a touch of angst. Details soon!

 

[Myth and Legend]

Shayuri would you like to step up to the official co-dm position? As you can see i do need the aid. Мaybe i should promise cookies? Yes! Yes, everyone likes cookies.

 

[Scott DeWar]

Shayuri would you like to step up to the official co-dm position? As you can see i do need the aid. Мaybe i should promise cookies? Yes! Yes, everyone likes cookies.

have you been watching wherehouse 13?

 

[Myth and Legend]

Scott: Nope! Do you ask because of the cookies?

Hmm, i don't think changelings can work with warshapers. Here is why: [sblock]Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the super natural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.[/sblock]

Disguise Self is very different to Polymorph and the spells of this line. It seems to me that the Changelings were designed to get a small boost with a free level 1 spell, sot of like the Drow and their Fairy Fire. It was not intended to be a shapechanging ability to the extent of allowing you to become a Dragon for example. The differences between the two spells are apparent, and the SU ability that shapechangers get can be countered by True Sight, therefore it is not "real" shape changing. Looking at a Werewolf with True Sight will not make him any less snarling and long-teethed. Get my point?

Let's review the requirements for Warshaper: [sblock] - Change shape supernatural ability
- Shapechanger subtype: lycantrhopes, phasms
- Polymorph as a spell-like ability
- Able to cast the Polymorph spell
- Wild shape or similar class feature[/sblock]

(Shapechanger Subtype: Changelings are humanoids with the shapechanger subtype.) Apparently this should work, but the subtype is too big of a generalization. A changeling is not a lycantrhope or a phasm. Last but not least, Flashmorph/Multimorph are dependent on the parent ability - unlimited changes within the duration for spells, and move-action changes for unlimited duration abilities like wild shape. The restrictions cannot be applied to the Changeling's SU ability, since it functions like an unlimited spell and would theoretically get the best of both worlds (IF it was an actual shapechanging abiliry, not one countered by True Sight)

I will have to do some more research, but in one of the games i play here, CM had a Lythari character - Elves that can become willingly infected with lycanthropy. I will have to look the specifics up, it's from the Forgotten Realms books. Maybe that is the answer to your needs? Let me get on this tomorow as i need sleep now

 

[Theroc]

Scott: Nope! Do you ask because of the cookies?

Hmm, i don't think changelings can work with warshapers. Here is why: [sblock]Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the super natural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.[/sblock]

Disguise Self is very different to Polymorph and the spells of this line. It seems to me that the Changelings were designed to get a small boost with a free level 1 spell, sot of like the Drow and their Fairy Fire. It was not intended to be a shapechanging ability to the extent of allowing you to become a Dragon for example. The differences between the two spells are apparent, and the SU ability that shapechangers get can be countered by True Sight, therefore it is not "real" shape changing. Looking at a Werewolf with True Sight will not make him any less snarling and long-teethed. Get my point?

Let's review the requirements for Warshaper: [sblock] - Change shape supernatural ability
- Shapechanger subtype: lycantrhopes, phasms
- Polymorph as a spell-like ability
- Able to cast the Polymorph spell
- Wild shape or similar class feature[/sblock]

(Shapechanger Subtype: Changelings are humanoids with the shapechanger subtype.) Apparently this should work, but the subtype is too big of a generalization. A changeling is not a lycantrhope or a phasm. Last but not least, Flashmorph/Multimorph are dependent on the parent ability - unlimited changes within the duration for spells, and move-action changes for unlimited duration abilities like wild shape. The restrictions cannot be applied to the Changeling's SU ability, since it functions like an unlimited spell and would theoretically get the best of both worlds (IF it was an actual shapechanging abiliry, not one countered by True Sight)

I will have to do some more research, but in one of the games i play here, CM had a Lythari character - Elves that can become willingly infected with lycanthropy. I will have to look the specifics up, it's from the Forgotten Realms books. Maybe that is the answer to your needs? Let me get on this tomorow as i need sleep now

I understand the ruling, but had to ask in case you'd handwave it. (Granted, I don't have my hands on the whole class atm(just Crystalkeep's snippet) I hope to get access to Complete Warrior in the near future.

As for the Lythari, I've never heard of it(And don't have those books), but as Werewolf was literally next on my list, I will definitely wait to see what you have.

In fact, I think getting big snarly and fluffy would make a more intimidating 'tank' anyway. Just don't call him Fido...

 

[Myth and Legend]

Hey if all else fails i will re-write the Changeling's ability, give them an ECL or something and make it work. I want everyone to have fun! The Warshaper RrC is very good but not imbalanced IMO. And a Druid can stay in Wildshape indefinitely, they thought of that when they made the PrC (Druid is core after all). Also, the group will definitely need a tank

 

[Theroc]

Hey if all else fails i will re-write the Changeling's ability, give them an ECL or something and make it work. I want everyone to have fun! The Warshaper RrC is very good but not imbalanced IMO. And a Druid can stay in Wildshape indefinitely, they thought of that when they made the PrC (Druid is core after all). Also, the group will definitely need a tank

Well, Werewolf will work fine if the Lythari don't work out. I might be a bit low on HP at first, but I'd likely go Barbarian to make up for that (Mithril full plate maybe?) and then I'd be getting into Warshaper-early-ish on with DR 10/silver and nat armor bonuses and all that, and fast healing and stuff.

At least, I THINK it would work fine. I of course can't predict what you'd be throwing at me.

 

[Shayuri]

Er

Hee

1st - I'd be happy to accept Asst-GM.

2nd - Changelings have the Shapechanger subtype. As do Shifters. They are eligible for Warshaper, if you go strictly by the book.

3rd - ANY change in form will be revealed by True Sight, again by the book. Lycanthropes. Magic spells. Phasms. It doesn't matter. The -only- type of disguise that True Sight doesn't foil is a purely mundane one...that is, one that is created using a disguise kit and the Disguise skill. Shapechanging of any kind, even if it's an Ex ability, is revealed.

Oh, and a druid can stay in wildshape essentially indefinitely, but has many incentives not to. They can't speak, for example. Nor use most of their items. Also, a druid's ability to assume forms is limited per day. So they can't shift willy-nilly at will (though one could make an argument that 1000 Faces -does- let them do just that).

Just to be clear - I'm not saying I'm against letting a Changeling take Warshaper. Just understand the risks.

 

[cheshire_grin]

As it is right now I will allow the synergy, but will restrict it in the way that you must purchase a specific Skill Trick for every kind of enemy you wish to have a bonus to Dark Knowledge for. For example, you have 5 ranks in Knowledge: Religion, you spend 2 points and get Skill Trick: Undead Knowledge. That gives you a 5 bonus to Dark Knowledge vs Undead. If you use Dark Knowledge to ID a fiend and attempt to grant a bonus to yourself and the party, you must have previously chosen the Skill Trick: Outsiders to get the bonus. Makes sense?

That sounds entirely reasonable. Thanks!


Quick question -- how should we do HP?

 

[ethandrew]

I've actually been wanting to play a mid-level 3.5 game for quite some time. I really want to do an Enchanter, but I'm not so sure how that'd hold up in an undead heavy game. But definitely color me interested.