Do Bards still suck?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, they do get some good new songs. I like Dirge of Doom at level 8. It makes foes shaken with no save as long as the performance lasts. Combine it with anything, anything at all that also cases fear and it makes fear escalation easy as pie!

 

[Steel_Wind]

Inspire Courage + Good Hope = +4/+4 to all allies = WIN

I have not played a bard in Pathfinder. I have, however, played WITH a bard in my Kingmaker party for the past 14 months. The Bard is actually our titular Baron/Duke/King in the PCs Kingdom. As a supporting cast member in the party - Bards ROCK.

This is not an isolated opinion. My other gaming group, also playing Kingmaker, are also of the opinion that their own bard, which fulfills the identical role in their Kingmaker campaign is +4/+4 and Full of Win. In terms of impact upon play, this bard combo is in a dead heat with the Wizard's Haste spell.

Given that there really is no spell in the game more useful than Haste in terms of multiplying the party's overall combat effectiveness, that's saying a LOT.

Not every player is content to play such a supporting role. They are not the front line fighter, nor the front line spellcaster. They do have utility and healing spells which can come in real handy in a pinch -- but they are not the "star" of the underlying combat game.

But above all, they have their Loremaster ability and Inspire Courage and Good Hope. +4/+4 never, ever, gets old. Add in Haste, and we are +5/+4 in Round 1 for essentially the entire combat out of the gate.

No wonder the bad guys don't stand a chance.

 

[Crothian]

The only thing that has caused the bard to suck has been players trying to make the bard character be something else.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Even if bards got 9th level spells, full base attack, and bardic music that granted wishes, they would still suck.

 

[paradox42]

Even if bards got 9th level spells, full base attack, and bardic music that granted wishes, they would still suck.

Funny you mention this- in my Epic house rules, Bards do in fact get Bardic Performance that grants Wish at 30th level.

But for the OP's question? I'll echo Crothian: if you think Bards suck then it's because you wanted to play something else anyway.

 

[HalfordAskold]

The only thing that has caused the bard to suck has been players trying to make the bard character be something else.

Bravo!

 

[Toben the Many]

Some rundown of changes from 3.5e to Pathfinder:

This basically outlines why I don't think that Bards suck in Pathfinder. In our early play-arounds with the system, people were looking over at the guy playing the Bard with mouths agape, saying, "What is this? A bard that doesn't suck? A bard that can actually do stuff?" Our bards were slaying giants, picking off bad guys, and generally rocking. They didn't rock the house like a fighter (but they're not supposed to), but they were quite solid.

The key, I think, is making the right build with the bard. For example, the bard/archer, IMO, is an example of a very effective, very competent build.

 

[IronWolf]

I am generally always happy to sit down at a table with a bard. They tend to be useful in several different scenarios and can provide some nice support during combat.

I have not yet tried my hand at a Pathfinder bard though - perhaps I will put it on my list of character classes to try!

 

[TarionzCousin]

you can't snowflake wardance,

Are you saying bards are no longer special snowflakes?

 

[Holy Bovine]

The only thing that has caused the bard to suck has been players trying to make the bard character be something else.

But for the OP's question? I'll echo Crothian: if you think Bards suck then it's because you wanted to play something else anyway.

Yeah - uh guys? how about you take the attitude about how and what I or my friends play into any other thread but this one m'kay?

Inspire Courage + Good Hope = +4/+4 to all allies = WIN

I have not played a bard in Pathfinder. I have, however, played WITH a bard in my Kingmaker party for the past 14 months. The Bard is actually our titular Baron/Duke/King in the PCs Kingdom. As a supporting cast member in the party - Bards ROCK.

This is not an isolated opinion. My other gaming group, also playing Kingmaker, are also of the opinion that their own bard, which fulfills the identical role in their Kingmaker campaign is +4/+4 and Full of Win. In terms of impact upon play, this bard combo is in a dead heat with the Wizard's Haste spell.

Given that there really is no spell in the game more useful than Haste in terms of multiplying the party's overall combat effectiveness, that's saying a LOT.

Not every player is content to play such a supporting role. They are not the front line fighter, nor the front line spellcaster. They do have utility and healing spells which can come in real handy in a pinch -- but they are not the "star" of the underlying combat game.

But above all, they have their Loremaster ability and Inspire Courage and Good Hope. +4/+4 never, ever, gets old. Add in Haste, and we are +5/+4 in Round 1 for essentially the entire combat out of the gate.

No wonder the bad guys don't stand a chance.

This is what i was really interested in - actual in game experiences! Thanks Steel Wind! This looks much more hopeful. The Bard is most likely one of those classes that plays much better than it looks on paper.

Some rundown of changes from 3.5e to Pathfinder:
snip awesome rundown of bard powers & ability changes

Thanks! That is a lot more than was readily apparent from my initial read through. I always seem to have a hard time 'eyeballing' a new class for power/balance/usefulness after one read through. It is really helpful to see the side by side comparison of the 2 versions like this.

Also thanks to everyone else for responding. If my thread title offended you please believe me when I say it was done with love and a lot of player input (mainly from my wife who played a Bard to 9th level in 3.5 and really grew to hate the class in the end). I want the Bard to be great. It doesn't have to overshadow every class or anything but being really good at a few things is really nice to see.