does anyone else think half-orcs get gypped?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But they do consider wimpy Half Orc Sorcerors to be a significant Half-Orcish weakness. How fair is that?

Not me.

I think the half-orc's stat-boosts and penalties are fair, whereas those of the dwarf aren't (it's only half the penalty, and to the most useless of stats when leaving out class options). Unfortunately, they have virtually no other benefits, unlike the other races. (Half-elves have particular weak benefits as well; other than darkvision what else does the half-orc get? A dwarf gets darkvision and +2 to many saves, in addition to the fairly long chain of nearly useless abilities.)

 

[KarinsDad]

Half-orcs really have no options for arcane casting, even if they wanted to.

Sure they could.

What does -2 to a spell casting stat really mean in DND?

1) It means -1 to the DC for saving throws. So, 19 times out of 20, the exact same result would occur. 1 time in 20, an opponent will save where he wouldn't have without the -2 to the stat. 95% of the time, there is no change.

2) It means that the character will have 1 to 3 fewer bonus spells. Although significant at real low levels, this is basically white noise by level 8 or so.

3) For Half-Orcs, it means one less skill rank per level and 5% of the time, Int or Cha skills will fail where they would have succeeded.


But, the reason people make such a big deal out of the Half-Orc abilities is that people are basically min-maxers at heart. If something is not optimal, it sucks. Cry me a river. Half-Orcs get the highest core race Strength in the game and Darkvision. For combatant types, it doesn't get much better than that.

But for min-maxers, that's not enough. They have to whine about how Dwarves get more abilities. Sure Dwarves get more abilities. Dwarves are a more defensive race. Half-Orcs are a more offensive race and have better mobility. Pros and Cons people.

At level 4, the 21 Str Half-Orc can Power Attack for one more than the 19 Str Dwarf and be the same to hit, but do with a Greatsword 2D6 +1 (magic) +1 (weapon focus) +7 (strength) +2 (power attack) = 18 average points of damage compared to the Dwarf's 15 average points of damage.

At level 8 (with a +2 magic weapon and 22 Str vs. 20 Str), it goes to 21 average points for the Half-Orc compared to 17 average points for the Dwarf.

And the trend continues. So, 3 to 4 points more damage per successful attack (with the same to hit and the option to have a better to hit without power attacking) is very significant for a melee oriented character. It means that it will often take one fewer successful attack to take out an opponent and it means that the Half-Orc blows through Damage Reduction better. For example, a 60 hit point opponent will be taken out on average with 3 successful hits by the 8th level Half-Orc and 4 successful hits by the 8th level Dwarf. With DR 10, that becomes 6 hits by the Half-Orc and 9 hits by the Dwarf.

Strength for Half-Orcs is just as significant as (if not more significant than) the other defensive benefits that Dwarves get over Half-Orcs. +2 Strength is huge and will finish battles quicker and result in fewer resources per battle than the +2 Con and other defensive abilities that a Dwarf gets.

 

[shilsen]

ok, first off... shilsen, half-orcs don't take a hit to WIS, just INT and CHA (which makes sense, especially if you sneak in an Intimidate bonus for them).

Whoops! It's been so long since I used the half-orc as written that I forgot

And I personally dislike giving Cha penalties to races, since so much of the description of Cha is based on force of personality. So half-orcs in my game get -2 to Int and +2 to Str, and dwarves get a -2 to Dex and a +2 to Con.

 

[Bad Paper]

second, yes, i'm familiar with the origin of the word "gyp." it's a colloquialism. don't get all red in the face over it. i'm pretty sure it's passed the point where the term is really associated with Roma. also, the word "gypsy" applies to groups other than the Roma, so they're not the only ones who should be getting offended over it.

Just because the Irish can also be called removed by admin doesn't make that word any less offensive, or validate its usage, or able to live up to whatever pointless explanation you're attempting to make. There can be no acceptable defense for the painfully ignorant title of this thread. Besides, it's the halflings that occupy that particular racial/social slot in this game. Shouldn't you be asking if half-orcs get "halflingged?"

a raging orc barbarian is a terrible enemy, but not so much moreso than, say, a raging dwarf barbarian

but you can run away from a dwarf.

Half-orcs are fine. My half-orc barbarian has no problem coping with his fantastic brawn, awesome speed, or fancy darkvision. Also, dwarves are just kinda lame.

 

[frankthedm]

Half-Orcs get the highest core race Strength in the game and Darkvision. For combatant types, it doesn't get much better than that.

Thats the main thing why one has to be carefull adding more onto the half orc. While they could use some small racial freebies, you have to make sure none of it adds to thier damage output.

Half-Orcs are a more offensive race

Yep. Though if you go far enough with dwarven beard jokes, racial greed and their xenophobic clannish tendencies you can offend many a gaming group.

Strength for Half-Orcs is just as significant as (if not more significant than) the other defensive benefits that Dwarves get over Half-Orcs. +2 Strength is huge and will finish battles quicker and result in fewer resources per battle than the +2 Con and other defensive abilities that a Dwarf gets.

Dwarves were given too much. All races will seem 'weak' until the dwarf has some of its abilties removed. Overall the half orc could use a little padding in the racial freebie department. They are plenty strong in thier damage dealing archtype, but for other uses they are a bit lackluster. In my own game I allow them more flexibity, but not one drop more power. [Hobgoblins and Orcs are two breeds of the same race]

Half Orc: Choose at character creation: You may take your +2 ability score bonus to STR, DEX, or CON. You may take your -2 ability score penalties to 2 different stats of your choice. Choose if you are Disciplined [favored class Fighter], or Degenerate [Favored Class Barbarian]

 

[The_Gneech]

Actually, what gets me about dwarves is that they get both "+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison" and "+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects" -- which translates into effectively "+2 on all saving throws except for pitfalls and rat bites".

That's powerful. Way powerful. Way more powerful than any bonus feat or +2 stat.

Now as to the dwarven movement penalty, this is pretty much negated by a single level of barbarian. Yes, the dwarven barbarian isn't as fast as a half-orc or human barbarian, but they are just as fast as a half-orc or human of almost any other class. This is why I say dwarves still have the advantage over the half-orc as a barbarian.

Dwarves also have a bucket of other goodies on top of unbalanced stats. So yeah, I'd say that's a pretty big discrepancy. Lose the "+2 vs. spells and spell-like effects" and it would be a little less egregious. But right now, I maintain that half-orcs have a right to be bitter, stats-wise.

-The Gneech

 

[kayn99]

Please do not forget that the +2 con bonus most likely translate into a +1 Fort. save. On top of the other saving throw bonuses they get.

To the point of Dwarven barbarian and Orc barbarian; I think that both places in Medium armor they move the same speed. Plus the dwarf will be able to stay in rage longer, which could mean more damage over a longer period of time.

Dwarves are extremely powerful race and some of the ECL +1 races are not as good as them. I do think the orcs are a little light on abilities. A better comparision for them might be elves for a balenced race.

Kayn

 

[Thurbane]

i mean, compared to the other races, they seem underpowered to me. their ability scores even out, and the only perk they get is darkvision. i'm thinking about giving them the scent ability in my next campaign. would this unbalance the race to the point of LA?

I agree 100%. I made a thread to discuss possible fixes here...

 

[Klaus]

My single main beef with the half-orc?

As written, a half-orc is LESS intimidating than a halfling, due to the Cha hit.

At the very least, half-orcs should get +2 to Intimidate and to resist Intimidation, offsetting the Cha penalty.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What does -2 to a spell casting stat really mean in DND?

I believe there's a reason a 15 is the high stat for 25 point buy. That's the lowest spellcasting stat you can have and still get 9th-level spells fast enough without a magic stat-boosting item.

At 1st-level, stat 15, 1st-level spells.
At 3rd-level, stat 15, 2nd-level spells.
At 4th-level, stat 16, 2nd-level spells.
At 5th-level, stat 16, 3rd-level spells.
...
At 12th-level, stat 18, 6th-level spells.
...
At 16th-level, stat 19, 8th-level spells.
At 17th-level, stat 19, 9th-level spells.

It comes pretty close here. If the spellcaster wasn't always boosting their primary stat, they'd be unable to cast their spells without a magical crutch item.

A half-orc sorcerer would either need to start with a 17* (dropped to 15) Charisma, or use a magic item to cast their 9th-level spells. The game is designed so that any high level character is going to have those magic items anyway (eg at 17th-level, the half-orc would have a +6 Charisma item, so 23 Charisma) but I have a problem with a sorcerer who can't cast spells without their magical crutch. I can take the save DC penalty, and the fewer spells, but if you can't even cast the spells without the crutch I consider that to be a seroius problem.

* You're unlikely to roll that, and it would cost a lot of points.

Having said that, I don't think it's a huge deal ... half-orc sorcerers are kind of rare, since anyone playing one would know they're (probably) going to be weak. Or you could play a half-orc gish, in which case you wouldn't need the ultra-high Charisma score.

As written, a half-orc is LESS intimidating than a halfling, due to the Cha hit.

At the very least, half-orcs should get +2 to Intimidate and to resist Intimidation, offsetting the Cha penalty.

I think that's a problem with the Intimidate skill. A 300 pound mafioso is intimidating. A 300 pound mafioso who threatens to have his men blow your shop up unless you pay for "protectin" is even more intimidating. If he or she is creative with their language, they're even more intimidating. An old lady threatening you that way probably isn't intimidating unless you know she's got the force to back her up ... by the rules, that might give a +2 bonus. (Lame!)

If the halfling threatens a character with a knife, claiming they'll "cut" you, I think they should be taking a penalty, as the threat isn't very credible unless you know the character is the halfling equivalent of Artemis Entreri, whereas an orc doing the same with a greataxe should get a bonus.

(Also, aren't there size modifiers to Intimidate? I could have sworn I saw that somewhere.)