Effects and conditions stack

[D3nt3]

I have a question here.

If a player gets to suffer from two of the same conditions, like two dazes from different sources, do they stack? Does he have to save from both?

And if they don't stack and he suffers from a "slow save ends" and a "slow till the end of turn", which stays?

 

[nute]

They both apply as long as they are from different sources. At the end of your turn, you save versus all effects that you can save against.

In the case of ongoing damage, only the greatest amount of any one specific type is actually taken, however.

Sir Firebelly, Dragonborn Paladin is currently slowed (save ends) and is suffering from 10 ongoing acid damage (save ends) from being chomped by a Rock Lobster. Then he gets hit by a Dire Koala with a power that slows him until the end of the Dire Koala's next turn. Then he gets hit by an Acid Hipster and takes 5 ongoing acid damage (save ends) and is dazed (save ends).

At the beginning of his turn, Sir Firebelly takes 10 acid damage and is slowed and dazed. At the end of his turn, he rolls (in any order he chooses):
- save vs being slowed by the Rock Lobster
- save vs the Rock Lobster's 10 ongoing acid damage
- save vs the Acid Hipster's 5 ongoing acid damage
- save vs the Acid Hipster's daze effect

He is still slowed by the Dire Koala's attack regardless of any saves he makes or fails. If he saves against the Rock Lobster's acid damage but NOT the Acid Hipster's ongoing acid damage, he'll still be taking 5 at the beginning of his turn.

 

[sfedi]

I still don't get why ongoing damage isn't cumulative.

It's not like it's damage isn't considered into the monster's DPR...

 

[Hypersmurf]

- save vs the Rock Lobster's 10 ongoing acid damage
- save vs the Acid Hipster's 5 ongoing acid damage

Has this been clarified somewhere?

PHB p278 says "You make a separate saving throw against each damage type"; 10 ongoing acid and 5 ongoing acid are the same type, so according to that you make a saving throw... not two saving throws.

-Hyp.

 

[Markn]

A far more interesting scenario is when you get 2 different effects of the same type, each with an additional effect. For example, you are dazed and restrained, both being save ends and then another creature hits you and you get dazed and weakened, save ends.

This isn't the exact scenario that has come up in our game but there was something similar with one common effect and one different effect. It left us scratching our heads...

 

[Jhaelen]

Has this been clarified somewhere?

It hasn't been clarified anywhere, AFAIK. In my games you'd have to make two saves but if you failed both saves, you'd 'only' take 10 damage.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Sir Firebelly, Dragonborn Paladin is currently slowed (save ends) and is suffering from 10 ongoing acid damage (save ends) from being chomped by a Rock Lobster. Then he gets hit by a Dire Koala with a power that slows him until the end of the Dire Koala's next turn. Then he gets hit by an Acid Hipster and takes 5 ongoing acid damage (save ends) and is dazed (save ends).

At the beginning of his turn, Sir Firebelly takes 10 acid damage and is slowed and dazed. At the end of his turn, he rolls (in any order he chooses):
- save vs being slowed by the Rock Lobster
- save vs the Rock Lobster's 10 ongoing acid damage
- save vs the Acid Hipster's 5 ongoing acid damage
- save vs the Acid Hipster's daze effect

He is still slowed by the Dire Koala's attack regardless of any saves he makes or fails. If he saves against the Rock Lobster's acid damage but NOT the Acid Hipster's ongoing acid damage, he'll still be taking 5 at the beginning of his turn.

This is an interesting one.

Poor old Sir Firebelly, who would have thought that the Rock Lobster League and the Dire Koala Conglomeration would join forces? The Acid Hipsters however have long had a reputation for double dealing and opportunist affilitions. However you look at it Sir Firebelly is having a rough day.

OK lets look at his dilema in order

1: He is already taking the following from the Rock Lobster:
- slowed (save ends)
- 10 ongoing acid damage

2: The Dire Koala then adds to his misery with:
- slowed (until the end of next turn)

3: The Acid Hipster then compounds Sir Firebelly's woes:
- 5 ongoing acid damage (save ends)
- dazed (save ends)

But wait, there is a small ray of hope for our hero. Sir Flamebelly is already taking ongoing acid damage (Rock Lobster) so the 5 from the Acid Hipster (lesser amount) is discounted and has no effect.

So at the beginning of Sir Flamebelly's turn he:
- is slowed (from 2 seperate sources)
- takes 10 ongoing acid damage
- is dazed

At the end of his turn he
- is still slowed until the end of the Dire Koala's next turn <editted>
- makes a save against the 10 ongoing acid damage from the Rock Lobster
- makes a save against the slow effect from the Rock Lobster
- makes a save against the daze effect from the Acid Hipster

Lets hope he can shake the effects off and deal out some justice to the unspeakable evil he is facing! Hopefully he will have a friendly leader type with him to give him a couple of bonus saving throws, I suspect Sir Simon "shake it off" Shouter (his long time ally) is in the area organising the natives.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'd have to find a link to it, but somewhere one of the R&D people said that any effect that isn't identical is a different effect with a different save. Identical ones require only one save.

Which means a Ongoing 10 Acid effect and an Ongoing 10 Acid and Slowed effect require two saves every round. Although the damage doesn't stack, so you only take 10 Acid every round.

 

[CapnZapp]

I've houseruled that you need to save against each attack separately. Ongoing damage (of the same type) still doesn't stack, just as being Dazed twice is no more harmful than being Dazed once.

It just is a massive nerfs to encounters with several identical monsters otherwise. Why should five Rock Lobsters be so much less dangerous than say, one Rock Lobster, one Bikini Whale, and three kinds of Fish?

Also, it's simple and easy to remember.

 

[Mesh Hong]

I've houseruled that you need to save against each attack separately. Ongoing damage (of the same type) still doesn't stack, just as being Dazed twice is no more harmful than being Dazed once.

Also, it's simple and easy to remember.

Personally I run it differently, if you are already subject to a status effect further similar effects have no effect.

If you are already dazed, you cannot be more dazed. If you are already taking 10 ongoing fire damage and you are subject to another effect for 5 ongoing fire damage then it isn't applied as you are already taking a similar and more dangerous effect.

Amazingly I do this for the same reason as you, it's simple and easy to remember.

For the record, as DM I am responsible for tracking effects on the PCs, I have a dedicated pad that I write down each effect on (when acquired) and cross them off when they have saved.

Of course like many of my rules of the game this is an approach that I have arrived at instinctively through play so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it isn't RAW.

It just is a massive nerfs to encounters with several identical monsters otherwise. Why should five Rock Lobsters be so much less dangerous than say, one Rock Lobster, one Bikini Whale, and three kinds of Fish?

I can see what you are saying here, but I think you might have it the wrong way round. A similar effect is a similar effect, it isn't a nerf to only have to save against it once.

In fact it might be overpowering an encounter if you are having to save against multiple instances of an effect. If you get hit by 4 attacks that also daze then if you have to make 4 saves to shake it off you are certainly going to be under the influence a lot longer, and probably be subject to further attacks that increase the total number of saves required.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the logic in your approach, and if it works the same for PCs as Monsters then it is certainly balanced. But I think it might be a little excessive for my tastes, and possibly require a lot more dice rolling that can slow turns down.

Also I have used monsters that confer stronger or longer lasting effects that require multiple saves; eg (2 saves ends).