Help me build an 11th level ranger (please)

[Mengu]

Just my experience here... The elf ranger in our game was trying to be versatile melee and ranged, with primary focus in range. He started with a Str 14, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8. It's a reasonable array. He got a longsword and shortsword at early levels. And I think once at level 2 and once at level 4 or so, he used twin strike in melee when he was stuck immobilized. But after the bracers of archery showed up, he has never made a single melee attack. If he's immobilized in melee and can't get out of it (and we can't get him out of it), he'll just provoke the opportunity attack and make the ranged attack anyway. It's just that much better.

So, long and short of it, yeah, he made a versatile character, but in play, when it's do or die time, we all tend to gravitate toward the stronger option.

To be fair, we are a 6-man group so he usually has enough of a melee wall in front of him. If we were a 4 man party with a laser cleric, wizard, fighter, and ranger, I'd want the ranger to be melee oriented, with secondary focus in range.

As a matter of fact, in my game, the half-orc melee ranger has a bow, and uses it quite a bit even though they are a 6-man group. So I think the melee primary, ranged secondary approach works much better for the versatile ranger.

 

[Mercurius]

Wow, lots of great responses - thank you, EN World!

I'm going to have to re-read it all as there is a lot to take in. It seems that there are two general groups: Those that think the bow/two-sword ranger is a bad idea and those that feel I can work with the idea. As someone (Herschel, I think) said, I am going for a concept more than min-maxing to the nth degree....I mean, I do want to optimize this character but I don't have to get the highest possible bonuses on every possible thing.

But it seems I can either:

Be great at one weapon (bow) and mediocre at the other (sword)
Be very good at one weapon (bow) and solid at the other (sword)
Be good at both weapons

I'm really going for the middle ground - being very good at the blow and solid+ at the sword. I like some of the ideas that would allow the character to quickly switch from the bow to swords (and vice versa).

I will read over the thread again and put together a preliminary character for you all to look at. Thanks again!

 

[Aegeri]

It isn't a bad idea, because the definition of that to me would be "nonviable", but it is a lot harder to pull off successfully. Especially compared with a more regular single track build - such as a Battlefield Archer or the Stormwarden. It really depends on how much damage you want to do - because focusing on one or the other will produce a much better result. This is again because Rangers have such wonderful PPs to choose from and Battlefield Archer is arguably one of the best. Also there is nothing more badass than taking the feat that gives you +5 damage on a prime shot, then running up to shoot something at point blank in the face.

 

[mneme]

Actually, the options are:
Great at bow and 2xSword (but short on other options): Scout
Great at one weapon but mediocre at the other (DEX/WIS/str or STR/WIS/dex build)
Good at both weapons, but bad riders (sacrificing Wisdom--the trad ranger secondary--for Dex)
Give up 2xSword for a big weapon, and be great at bow and good with your sword (using dex for both, using Fading Strike as your melee power, not Twin Strike)
Give up the bow for a thrown weapon, and be great at both thrown weapon range (using throw and stab) and melee range (using Twin Strike).

Note, btw, that the low dex options strongly favor upgrading to heavy armor, as otherwise your AC will start low and get worse over time.

Indepentant of these questions is that of build, where you've got the following alternatives:
Extra HP and bigger melee weapons (two-weapon build)
Better OA resistance and archer-specific PP (archer build)
Pet (beastmaster build)
Quick Draw and quick sheathing and +4 against OAs from ranged attacks (Hunter)
+1 to speed and Two Weapon Defense (Marauder)

Now, based on what you've said and repeated for what you want? I think you want a Hunter Ranger with starting stats of, say, 16/12/10/16/12/8, which for an elf gets boosted to 16/12/10/18/14/8. Swap Int and Cha if you like, and if you care more about your riders than survivability, boost Wis to 13 and drop con to 11 to get a 16 wis in paragon. You'll have fine melee and range attack and damage (though you'll favor ranged slightly), good defenses and AC, and be able to seamlessly switch from ranged to dual wielding and back again at need. You will pretty much never need a second at will beyond Twin Strike (I'd take warning shot because it gives you a controller option, I guess, or Fading Strike because it gives you an attack+move option and lets you do OAs with Dex instead of Str), and can take any power you want--but want to avoid powers with a significant Wis rider.

 

[LightPhoenix]

If you don't mind spending the feats, you might be better off multi-classing to a Dex or Wis primary class (Rogue/Avenger/Assassin) to pick up melee powers. That way you don't need three stats to do your thing.

 

[Mercurius]

mneme, I'm intrigued by the option of being great at bow and good at a big weapon (probably great sword or even full blade or bastard sword). How would you recommend doing that? And would you recommend that over two short swords?

Aegeri, do you recommend Battlefield Archer over Sharpshooter?

 

[Aegeri]

Either to be honest. Sharpshooter is just plain great as well and I wouldn't say one is definitely better than the other. You just can't go wrong no matter what you pick out of those two!

Sharpshooter is more awesome though due to being able to take OAs with a bow - eliminating the need for any melee whatsoever to be honest - and stab and shoot is just an hilarious power. At the same time Battlefield archer lets you plant quarry on multiple enemies at a time, gives you another accuracy bonus (accuracy is ALWAYS good) and combined fire is great if you have a wizard/sorcerer in the party. Not to mention Archers glory lets you use an AP every encounter just about. Plus the daily is really great if you invest in wisdom - that can be a GOOD chunk of attacks.

Which again, is why to get the most of these I recommend being largely dex/wisdom. More wisdom with Battlefield archer is a lot of 3[W] attacks :O

 

[Mad Hamish]

Note that battlefield archer also gives other people a bonus to hit your quarry.

 

[mneme]

[MENTION=78116]Aegeri[/MENTION] indeed. The only real problem with Battlefield Archer is that you have to be an Archer ranger to take it (the ranger build that gives you the least on its own). Ironically, this means that the premier Archer Ranger build is the Point Blank Archer who shoots stuff from up close and laughs at OAs, wheras archers who are build to hit things from range tend to take other builds.

Great at bow and good with a big weapon: Martial Power introduced a series of powers that let you make melee attacks with Dex, not Str -and- can be used with ranged weapons. (not to mention powers that are designed explicitly for characters switching back and forth). However, the Dex melee powers don't benefit from dual wielding -- and they go all the way from Fading Strike (an at will that gives you a dex based ranged or melee and a shift) through the 25th level Deadly Sidestep.

Also, the suite include the confrontation set -- a set of Dex-based ranged dailies that grant you Wisdom-based riders on melee attacks -- for instance, Commanding Confrontation--a 3W ranged daily that gives you 2+Wis extra damage on melee attacks to the creature you target with it for the encounter. (higher level versions let you weaken, knock prone, or even daze and then stun a target while switching from ranged to melee--and then there's Ultimate Confrontation, which gives you a minimum of 1W extra damage on each subsequent melee attack against the subject). There are also some dex-based non-dual wielding melee multiattack powers -- at 17, Wolverine Claw Strike is two 2W attacks against two targets plus a Wis bonus to AC, while if you prefer multiattacks to buffs, Scything Blow is a level one dex-based multiattack that moves you, makes two 1W melee attacks against two targets and knocks them prone.

I do think that the the DEX/Wis melee/ranged ranger is stronger than the switching twin striker. If you choose to maximize Dex, you end up with +1 AC, +1 to hit, +1 Initiative, +1 damage (to everything except Twin Strike for that last) (and +2 each for your melee attacks), plus serious synergistic riders on your utilities and your attacks that aren't Twin Strike. And while it's pretty tough to switch reasonably between ranged and melee with two weapons without being a Hunter ranger (though you might want to anyway) or having a hand familiar (mnn. Cheese), it's easy enough to buy the ability to switch easily between a bow and a single sword--Ruby Scabbard + Deep Pocket Cloak does it well enough (or even just Quick Draw; use a minor to stow and quick draw to draw), freeing you to take one of the other paths if you want. I'd probably build this kind of ranger with 10/11/8/20/16/10 as my array, and either go Hunter or Beastmaster.

 

[Herschel]

On the other hand, it helps to know the mechanical drawbacks of a build that fits a concept, so...

Don't go away.

Yes, go away if you are too inbred to cheese to actually help the person with what they ask for. Sure, it's fine to point out why this or that may be hard to pull off, but then put in how it might be best to get what they want instead of what you think they should play. It's not badwrongfun to play a character that isn't on some op thread even though a few posters put forth that notion.

Viable, decent and fun doesn't have to be an exercise in trying to milk a single trick in to the gaudiest numbers possible. The game is set up to play as part of a party of individuals, most of whom never read an internet bulletin board about character building, and they have a lot of fun too.

I applaud someone who wants to build a ranger that doesn't just sit back and let everyone else get hit.