I was right about Shield Master

[Maxperson]

According to JC when and if statements are interchangeable in 5e rules.

It really wouldn't matter for this, though. If you take the attack action, or when you take the attack action, the action hasn't been taken until it's over. Specific beats general allows you to move in-between your attacks, but Shield Master doesn't have specific language that would allow it to be used before the attack action completes, and you haven't even begun to take the action until the first attack has happened. It's just a declared action until you swing for the first time.

It's also just common sense that you couldn't shove someone hard enough with a shield to knock them over or push them 5 feet away, and also attack with a weapon hard enough to kill someone simultaneously. The body just doesn't work that way.

 

[Sadras]

And another thing in general on this, I do not understand why this does not make sense to people, since you cannot do two different actions simultaneously. Once you start one action, you need to complete it before you can start another action. Whatever the trigger is for a bonus action, you need to compete that before you get to do the bonus. The only time this would not be true is if there is a specific exception that overrides the general rule, and Shield Master does not do that.

One can move 5ft, attack, move 5ft, interact with the environment/object, move 5ft, attack, move 5ft, drop a weapon, move 5ft.

5e's spirit does not coincide with what you have said.

 

[FrogReaver]

No, you are in the process of taking the attack action if you haven’t completed it. If you are in the process of taking something the. You haven’t taken it yet

One can move 5ft, attack, move 5ft, interact with the environment/object, move 5ft, attack, move 5ft, drop a weapon, move 5ft.

5e's spirit does not coincide with what you have said.

#1 you seem to be using action in the generic sense while he was using action in the specific rules sense. (Neither movement nor object interactions are actions in that sense)

#2 there is nothing in the spirit of 5e that suggests otherwise. There are explicit exceptions about what activities can be done inside others.

 

[FrogReaver]

No, you are in the process of taking the attack action if you haven’t completed it. If you are in the process of taking something the. You haven’t taken it yet

It really wouldn't matter for this, though. If you take the attack action, or when you take the attack action, the action hasn't been taken until it's over. Specific beats general allows you to move in-between your attacks, but Shield Master doesn't have specific language that would allow it to be used before the attack action completes, and you haven't even begun to take the action until the first attack has happened. It's just a declared action until you swing for the first time.

It's also just common sense that you couldn't shove someone hard enough with a shield to knock them over or push them 5 feet away, and also attack with a weapon hard enough to kill someone simultaneously. The body just doesn't work that way.

I agree with you, was just pointing out that the designers have spoken and said there is no difference in the rules between a if you do x you can do y and a when you do x you can do y.

well I don’t agree with the common sense part but it’s not worth arguing about

 

[cmad1977]

So... much.... facepalm....

 

[billd91]

I have to admit, I'm scratching my head at this a bit. Making someone vulnerable to your own attack by hitting them with a shield first is an old tactic - it was made famous by Roman legionnaires against the Celts.

I can get behind making sure the PC is committed to the attack action - but that just means that taking any bonus action triggered by an attack action means that action is committed even if events render the action moot (such as if the bonus shove pushes the target into a space where he can no longer be attacked with the PC's attack action).

 

[epithet]

...
It's also just common sense that you couldn't shove someone hard enough with a shield to knock them over or push them 5 feet away, and also attack with a weapon hard enough to kill someone simultaneously. The body just doesn't work that way.

While it is, I think, a general truism that you can't apply common sense physics to D&D combat, I think in this case it bears pointing out that your common sense is nonsensical in the context of 5e melee combat. One scenario that (I think) everyone will agree is possible--both the "JC was right in 2015" crowd and the "JC is right as of 2017" crowd--is that a fighter with the extra attack feature and shield master can shove a melee target 5 feet, move 5 feet forward, shove the target another 5 feet, move 5 feet forward, then shove the target a 3rd time.

In terms of how "the body" works, if you can "linebacker" someone with the shield on your left arm, you can just as easily introduce that target to the pointy end of the weapon you're holding in your right hand.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It's strange, but I just did a search and couldn't find any threads started by FrogReaver titled, "I was wrong about...."

Maybe they got deleted somehow.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It's also just common sense that you couldn't shove someone hard enough with a shield to knock them over or push them 5 feet away, and also attack with a weapon hard enough to kill someone simultaneously. The body just doesn't work that way.

In 6 seconds?

Maybe your body....

(that was intended with good-natured humor)

 

[Sadras]

#1 you seem to be using action in the generic sense while he was using action in the specific rules sense. (Neither movement nor object interactions are actions in that sense)

I'm aware of his ruling I just do not very much agree with it.

#2 there is nothing in the spirit of 5e that suggests otherwise. There are explicit exceptions about what activities can be done inside others.

I guess you and me see things differently. I see 5e as more combat fluid, hence I refer to the spirit of 5e based on the excerpts below as well as others. You see these as exceptions and that is probably why we won't agree on this issue.

You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you o f your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action

You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action.

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks.

If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move.

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.

The last one is included to reflect on the ease of combat, very unlike 3.x