Immortals Handbook - ASCENSION

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

While mucking about with making some critters, I noticed something that is entirely unfair: the Carapace Divine Ability. If you apply a divine template on top of a creature that already has natural armor, such as a dragon or a demon, this can make a creature that is impossible for fighters to hit at any of the appropriate levels they should be fighting at. I considered giving this to something at CR 28, but that would give it a +92 Natural Armor bonus. On top of all the other armor bonuses it gets!

This ability should be capped. I'd reccomend saying "This ability cannot raise the deity's natural armor past its hit dice" instead of just saying that it SHOULD be about equal to hit dice. Make it a real limit, not just a reccomendation.

Dragons already have Carapace ~ technically speaking.

Don't worry I'll have somethiing in the rules to limit it.

Basically,

1/4 per HD = Natural Armour, thats skin
1/2 per HD = NA = Exoskeleton
3/4 per HD = NA = Squamous
1 per HD = NA = Carapace

If a monster already has better than 1/4 then its got Exoskeleton.etc.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

While mucking about with making some critters, I noticed something that is entirely unfair: the Carapace Divine Ability. If you apply a divine template on top of a creature that already has natural armor, such as a dragon or a demon, this can make a creature that is impossible for fighters to hit at any of the appropriate levels they should be fighting at. I considered giving this to something at CR 28, but that would give it a +92 Natural Armor bonus. On top of all the other armor bonuses it gets!

This ability should be capped. I'd reccomend saying "This ability cannot raise the deity's natural armor past its hit dice" instead of just saying that it SHOULD be about equal to hit dice. Make it a real limit, not just a reccomendation.

It seems like it reads that they gain a natural armor bonus to armorclass, but I see where the confusion lies. I think it is meant to read that if you allready have Natural armor, use this AC or yours, which ever is better. (most WoTC templates state this) I do not think it stacks.
U_K!
the 201 thing was just an example for an suggestions my gaming group were throwing around. Their rationel was this: If a level 20 guy gets infinite strength, Omnific numerical ELC adjustment asside, he gets alot of power. He can essentially defeat anyone in a contest of strength, and could kill anything he wanted in Melee combat. He is still, however, just as "easy" to neutralize in magical combat (~300 hp, crappy saves for his ECL) as a ECL. His later gaining of one, single level really has no numerical power increase to his challenge rating whatsoever. (+1 to hit? I can't miss! +~10 hp? Bah monsters at my CR range one-shot me! +1 to a save? Wont matter, DCS are like 100, and I can't make 'em.)
The other thing they liked about their idea was that if you cheese it and take Invinicibility and Transient Fortitude all at once, you will, all at once, get that X3 or X4 (Do you add multipliers like you do with 3rd Edition doublings, or do you multiply them?) ECL adjustment, so the immediate penalty for typing "IDDQD" or "/Godmode" is that it will be a Looooong time before they level again, where as if they just took the smaller divine abilities they may again gain another level during the game.
Oh, and your Polymath ability is the coolest ever! I think if I had a character with powerful, all around stats, I would take it. (Sweet for druids too ) And use any/all of my Cosmic slots to gain "divine inspiration" and sometimes swap in "multifaceted" or "Extra-Level"
If you know of the Chameleon class from races of Destiny, you become the ultimate chameleon, since you probobly have every skill, and every feat you have taken that you don't swap each round probobly is utility in nature or helps a range of classes (Like natural spell, automatic metamagic capacity) You have a character sheet that fits on a 3"x5" index card (But is a horrible rules and balance nightmare )
EDIT: As I was looking at ascension, I had the Idea to redo my original Black Hole Golem, possibly to post it. (The orginal was just a horrible destruction machine) Your Divine power for widening auras and the Storm [Effect] Were just what I was looking for. I budgeted myself on 180 divine slots, and my planned Idea was either for a mucho-enlarged aura Telluric or Ultima aura. (Since I don't know which [Effect] deals d1000s, Ill wait)
The interesting thing is, with that combo, and telluric aura, it would be "easy" for a mid ranked cosmic entity to "storm" a universe to death. It wouldn't even need to deal all that much damage either - the telluric effect would kill everything not immune to the effect. The Enlarge Aura ability taken about 50 or so times pretty much spells the end for that galexy/universe. (If you can leave that galaxy that is)
Is Astro [Effect] combinable with Telluric?

 

[dante58701]

The Epic Bestiary PDF may need minor revisions at some point. Although those revisions are so minor it would take a whole of a half hour to an an hour to complete. Thus far I only see one real potential confusion...which abilities are "purely racial" and would be retained irregardless of divinity? To solve this problem...I just take existing monsters from the epic bestiary, and overlap the divine template (not stacking...that would just be insane and unbalanced). That way they have the full powers of the template and their racial abilities. I dont count things such as "First Choir" as being part of the divine template, though I do overlap the abilities that are covered by the base racial abilities and the divine templates. For example...wrath of god is a divine ability...so I subtract the appropriate amount of divine abilities from the template to account for that. The same thing is done with slipstream and other abilities that are blatantly divine. Thus I dont give them abilities that they should not possess. At this point Im wondering if it is safe to assume that all of this is still a work in progress, if so...the work has thus far been splendid. We've been provided with many more hours of gaming fun. Mayhaps you could show us a Malakim striped of it's divinity. Might help solve some of the build issues for the easily confused. Im one of those that is very easily confused since monster builds are rather new to me.

First Choir...Cosmic or Transcendent?
Second Choir...Cosmic?
Third Choir...Divine?


And spell-like abilities...be they divine or cosmic? Or do you get 9 Levels of spell-like abilities usable at will as a divine ability? How does that work exactly?

Oh...one more thing...when do the higher tier undead come out? I wanna play a Nosferatu!!! LOL!!!

 

[Fieari]

It seems like it reads that they gain a natural armor bonus to armorclass, but I see where the confusion lies. I think it is meant to read that if you allready have Natural armor, use this AC or yours, which ever is better. (most WoTC templates state this) I do not think it stacks.

Oh, I know about bonuses. Carapace, as it stands though, grants a bonus of quadruple your current natural armor, whatever that may currently be. So if your natural armor is currently 23 (and you've only got 20 HD) and you take the ability, you get natural armor 92. Which is silly.

Instead of saying "quadruple" or "double" these various scores for abilities, I'd highly reccomend you just say outright, "Grants a XXXXX bonus equal to your HD" or half your HD or a quarter or whatever. Cleaner language all around. If it said THAT, then it would be a case of taking whichever is better, your normal natural armor or the ability's natural armor, 'cause they wouldn't stack.

 

[DDM]

back

Hello UK.
I was posting 2 threads ago. While I didn't continue to do so, i looked from time to time at your progress.
Now I bought your 0.7 pdf file on Ascension.
Could you, or anyone else, tell me a link where you explain the choice of your ascension method ?

I mean, the work looks great, promising, and very well done (like I knew it would be).
But if i'm not mistaken, the ascension method seems a little dull: kill people, or participate in big events, and you get points to reach divinity.
I was looking for something more spectacular, included in a point system (because in a way, you have to count the ascension process for the PC). Your point system is nice, but alone, it seems quite souless.
Now, maybe I didn't read enough, and skimmed through things a little too quickly.
It's still a good process, I guess i just do not like some of it (getting points for killing lemures or low-HD monsters ? not for me), and since you say so well, it's all optional. (we're DM after all )

Care to illuminate me ? ;-)

 

[Upper_Krust]

By the way before I forget again ALZRIUS - my last handful of emails to you have been returned to me saying they can't be delivered.

Howdy!

It seems like it reads that they gain a natural armor bonus to armorclass, but I see where the confusion lies. I think it is meant to read that if you allready have Natural armor, use this AC or yours, which ever is better. (most WoTC templates state this) I do not think it stacks.
U_K!

I am sure it specifically states "multiplies your Divine Natural Armour Bonus". However, I probably didn't specify that the Divine NA doesn't stack with other forms of NA.

the 201 thing was just an example for an suggestions my gaming group were throwing around. Their rationel was this: If a level 20 guy gets infinite strength, Omnific numerical ELC adjustment asside, he gets alot of power. He can essentially defeat anyone in a contest of strength, and could kill anything he wanted in Melee combat. He is still, however, just as "easy" to neutralize in magical combat (~300 hp, crappy saves for his ECL) as a ECL. His later gaining of one, single level really has no numerical power increase to his challenge rating whatsoever. (+1 to hit? I can't miss! +~10 hp? Bah monsters at my CR range one-shot me! +1 to a save? Wont matter, DCS are like 100, and I can't make 'em.)

Well then you have basically vindicated the flat bonus approach.

If 20th-level x 10 = ECL 200, but 21 x 10 = 201 you may as well be applying a flat figure.

The other thing they liked about their idea was that if you cheese it and take Invinicibility and Transient Fortitude all at once, you will, all at once, get that X3 or X4 (Do you add multipliers like you do with 3rd Edition doublings, or do you multiply them?) ECL adjustment, so the immediate penalty for typing "IDDQD" or "/Godmode" is that it will be a Looooong time before they level again, where as if they just took the smaller divine abilities they may again gain another level during the game.

Oh, and your Polymath ability is the coolest ever! I think if I had a character with powerful, all around stats, I would take it. (Sweet for druids too ) And use any/all of my Cosmic slots to gain "divine inspiration" and sometimes swap in "multifaceted" or "Extra-Level"

Glad you like it.

If you know of the Chameleon class from races of Destiny, you become the ultimate chameleon, since you probobly have every skill, and every feat you have taken that you don't swap each round probobly is utility in nature or helps a range of classes (Like natural spell, automatic metamagic capacity) You have a character sheet that fits on a 3"x5" index card (But is a horrible rules and balance nightmare )

Not familiar with Races of Destiny, sorry.

EDIT: As I was looking at ascension, I had the Idea to redo my original Black Hole Golem, possibly to post it. (The orginal was just a horrible destruction machine) Your Divine power for widening auras and the Storm [Effect] Were just what I was looking for. I budgeted myself on 180 divine slots, and my planned Idea was either for a mucho-enlarged aura Telluric or Ultima aura. (Since I don't know which [Effect] deals d1000s, Ill wait)

Technically none.

The interesting thing is, with that combo, and telluric aura, it would be "easy" for a mid ranked cosmic entity to "storm" a universe to death. It wouldn't even need to deal all that much damage either - the telluric effect would kill everything not immune to the effect. The Enlarge Aura ability taken about 50 or so times pretty much spells the end for that galexy/universe. (If you can leave that galaxy that is)
Is Astro [Effect] combinable with Telluric?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

The flat bonus is fine, I just threw out the possibility of other ways to handle it. I think mathematically, certain abilities increase at a constant rate, while the power of the character without those abilities increases at a rate. If those rates are different, one will eclipse the other and become the main power of the character -
Ex: If a feat says "Gives +1 to hit with everything" that bumps the bonus for that character's hitting power up one notch, keeping the powercurve uniform. If another says "Gives +1 to hit with everything per level" that feat will become more powerful as the character gains levels. At first level they are identical, but as the character gains levels, if he had taken the secound feat, he or she will be roughly twice as powerful than a character who had just taken the first. A flat level adjustment wouldn't suit such a power, since a character with the scaling feat at level 1+X is 1+X better than a normal character. Granted, since such things are inherrent in the system, this wouldn't matter, and it is just an issue of a broken feat. But if this were a unique type of PC character, that character would most certainly be more powerful than any of his level. (Note - probably only ones of his class)
In short, I don't know anything And go with what works best it is your system. Plug some math, and find what looks right. I don't think many are going to look into the mathematical scaling of your system and go "Gee, Ability XXX isn't worth a X2 multiplier, but a X3.14!"

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello UK.

Hey DDM dude!

I was posting 2 threads ago. While I didn't continue to do so, i looked from time to time at your progress.

Nice to hear you have recovered your voice so to speak.

I trust you have been keeping well mate?

Now I bought your 0.7 pdf file on Ascension.

Thanks - apologies for not having it finished yet.

Could you, or anyone else, tell me a link where you explain the choice of your ascension method?

Not sure I understand what you mean?

I mean, the work looks great, promising, and very well done (like I knew it would be).

But if i'm not mistaken, the ascension method seems a little dull: kill people, or participate in big events, and you get points to reach divinity.

Resonance/Fast Play ~ Divinity is granted in some fashion (by a pact with a being, links with a place or possession of an artifact).

Power/Moderate Speed Play ~ Divinity Acquired through slaying other Immortals and stealing their Quintessence 'Highlander style'.

Glory/Slow-Detailed Approach ~ Divinity acquired through great deeds and events.

I was looking for something more spectacular, included in a point system (because in a way, you have to count the ascension process for the PC). Your point system is nice, but alone, it seems quite souless.

Well the write-ups are not finished of course, I dare say they could use a 'fleshing out'. I presume its more 'fluff' you are after...for want of a better word?

Now, maybe I didn't read enough, and skimmed through things a little too quickly. It's still a good process, I guess i just do not like some of it (getting points for killing lemures or low-HD monsters ? not for me), and since you say so well, it's all optional. (we're DM after all)

Surely thats a mechanical issue rather than a philosophical one though?

Care to illuminate me ? ;-)

Just switch the light on.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante!

The Epic Bestiary PDF may need minor revisions at some point. Although those revisions are so minor it would take a whole of a half hour to an an hour to complete. Thus far I only see one real potential confusion...which abilities are "purely racial" and would be retained irregardless of divinity? To solve this problem...I just take existing monsters from the epic bestiary, and overlap the divine template (not stacking...that would just be insane and unbalanced). That way they have the full powers of the template and their racial abilities. I dont count things such as "First Choir" as being part of the divine template, though I do overlap the abilities that are covered by the base racial abilities and the divine templates. For example...wrath of god is a divine ability...so I subtract the appropriate amount of divine abilities from the template to account for that. The same thing is done with slipstream and other abilities that are blatantly divine. Thus I dont give them abilities that they should not possess. At this point Im wondering if it is safe to assume that all of this is still a work in progress, if so...the work has thus far been splendid. We've been provided with many more hours of gaming fun.

Thats not a problem, its just your innate curiousity.

Mayhaps you could show us a Malakim striped of it's divinity. Might help solve some of the build issues for the easily confused.

Mayhaps! MAYHAPS! Did I just step into the 17th century!? Who are you, the Count of Monte Christo!? Is that Edmund Dante...perchance!?

Im one of those that is very easily confused since monster builds are rather new to me.

First Choir...Cosmic or Transcendent?
Second Choir...Cosmic?
Third Choir...Divine?

1st = Cosmic
2nd = Divine
3rd = Disciple to Quasi-deity

And spell-like abilities...be they divine or cosmic? Or do you get 9 Levels of spell-like abilities usable at will as a divine ability? How does that work exactly?

You get 9 per portfolio (1 per spell level) then the standard divine abilities. Epic Spells if applicable.

Oh...one more thing...when do the higher tier undead come out? I wanna play a Nosferatu!!! LOL!!!

I'll exhume them at a later date...mayhaps.

 

[paradox42]

Actually, DDM's post- combined with one from Ltheb Silverfrond in the Grimoire thread (which I'll quote below for ease of reference) brought up a point in my head that I thought of upon first reading Beta 0.6, but forgot to post about at the time.

An alternative to Xp costs in high-end spells would be to integrate Quintessense costs, perhaps split evenly so it doesnt just drain the deity's/mortal's levels.
Or an option to substitute Quintessence for Xp, perhaps a max of half the Xp, and maybe not 1:1, like 5:1. (Since gods can get quintessence easy, just tell their clerics to do stuff )

This is the question: what, precisely, does it mean to "spend" Quintessence?

Are you assuming a system of point pools (i.e. there are permanent points and temporary points) like two previous Immortals-level rules systems (the D&D gold-box set, and the Primal Order) used? If this is the case, how does the temporary pool replenish itself? How often, and does the character need to do anything special to get it back?

Or is it something altogether different, where Quintessence is more like XP for characters in the base d20 rules system- an essentially nonrenewable resource (you can only renew it by participating in encounters and other means which essentially boil down to DM fiat)? If this is the case, what is an Immortal really doing by spending it? Does it lose worshippers suddenly, for no apparent reason, for instance? Does it lose memories or get smaller somehow?

I know which system I'd prefer to use, but the current version of Ascension doesn't actually make it clear which one it's using- or at any rate, not in any place I noticed. However, since the book does mention spending Quintessence, it should be spelled out in explicit detail somewhere, I think, particularly if Quintessence is considered truly separate from a character's XP total. This is mostly a fluff detail, I think, because different DMs may have different ideas of how it should be done- but it should probably be spelled out in detail somewhere in the explanations of what Quintessence is, because people new to the concept won't have any idea what to do on this point. And knowing how most players think, it will come up in game shortly after any mechanics for Immortals are introduced.