D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Nadan]

I think this post is a huge waste of times, because WotC clearly doesn't view magical dependencies as a problem and don't want to have fundamental change how the game will play between 2014 and 2024. Bickering on a quite irrelevant topic over 100 pages on a board about how WotC will change the game in next year.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And yet, anyone with an Int of 13 (and some other 13) can take a level of Wizard. Anyone with an Int or Wis of 13 can take the Ritual Caster feat, and anyone can take Magic Initiate. So...yeah.

Irrelevant. The rules are not the physics of the world.

 

[Emberashh]

I think this post is a huge waste of times, because WotC clearly doesn't view magical dependencies as a problem. Bickering on a quite irrelevant topic over 100 pages on a board about how WotC will change the game in next year.

Keep in mind that collectively the TTRPG community have been having the same general debates for 50+ years. There was even an article or something I remember that talked about it; how you could go into old magazines or ancient usenet boards and find the same debates we still see recurring today.

More than once in this topic Ive pointed out how much Ive seen certain trains of thought play out.

Ultimately it isn't really a waste of time, as theres usually something new to be gleamed, not everything is a predictable repeat, but it does help to recognize these discussions will likely outlive us all.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I showed that that fight doesn't challenge the most basic of fighters - they can't even get the fighter to half health, even when given the most optimal circumstances.

"I've used all my resources and am almost at 50% hp" isn't a challenge to you? What would be a challenge then? Dying?

Why should that fight have stopped being a serious challenge ten levels ago? 10 CR2 opponents is a tough fight!

For a level 20 group? Then what is 10 CR 5's? Death? Can then even possibly take on 10 CR 10's?

In fact, according to the DMG that fight has a rating of "deadly" for a single level 20 character.

Interesting fact. Wanna bet that evocation wizard I made to deal with the Sphinx can handle it much easier?

And "sudden panic"? Actually doing the math, while giving your scenario every advantage, indicates "sudden panic"? Hate to break it to you, but your math was obviously wrong, I just spelled it out. No, the fighter doesn't die, as you alleged, they easily triumph. It isn't close.

You didn't do actual math, you started changing things. You demanded they use resources, you demanded they have a higher con, you wanted them to have feats. Sure, all reasonable things, but it was because without those things, it was obvious what was going to happen.

Also, "need" to take a sub-class? Taking a sub-class is mandatory - every level 20 character has a sub-class. But to give your scenario the benefit of the doubt I chose the most basic sub-class. As noted. Also, I didn't have them take toughness or raise their con past 16, even though a level 20 tanky fighter would probably do both those things. But no, I made the fighter about as bad as I could, just to give your scenario the best chance possible. And left them standing in the centre of the room (though I knew it wouldn't make a difference).

yes, taking a subclass is mandatory. But which subclass isn't. I don't know why people keep thinking that not having a subclass ability used in a fight suddenly means I'm breaking the rules. You chose the weakest one? Why not the Banneret which has zero abilities that could activate in that scenario? Or the Cavalier who only has a random AC increasing ability that would activate?

And again. All uses of Action surge. All uses of Second Wind. And 50% of their hp. Not what I would call an "easy" victory.

But yeah, they used second wind and action surge, because those are a basic part of the fighter package. However, even without those, the fighter sill wins and is not in danger - it just takes two more rounds and they finish with 56 HP instead of 94 HP (unless they are smart and toy with that last orog for a bit to let themselves heal back up to 92 HP, but I think we've established that this fighter is an idiot). And what is the point of this hypothesis, again - are we comparing how different classes do against trash mobs while not using core class features? Okay, so should we compare to a paladin who refuses to do smites and a druid who doesn't shapeshift?

The point was that it was claimed that fighter's don't even struggle to handle "trash mobs", never. Not even once. Being at 56 hp is losing 67% of their health. Again, in what world is that not a struggle? Remember, I was assuming that the fighter never missed a single attack, in 40 attacks they never rolled less than a 7. Does that sound realistic to you?

A paladin will be in much the same situation with or without spells and smiting. The druid without shapeshift though? They are likely fine. They may struggle, as Druid's have a hard time with direct damage spells, but they do have many options.

Does it? Your point was that they couldn't do it.

No, my point was that they couldn't do it without a struggle

But no - that fighter easily tanked a deadly encounter by themselves, even though they have minimal gear, a lousy build, and zero tactical sense.

Minimal gear? Do you think that there is some gear you could give them that would let them get through that fight with more than 70% of their hit points?

So what is your argument - that that isn't good enough? Now you are shifting goalposts, to argue that (apparently) it should have been even easier for them than it actually is. They shouldn't even have to take a short rest after single-handled stomping a platoon of orogs! (I mean, if played with any sense this guy wouldn't actually need a rest, but, again, we seem to be assuming this is the worst fighter in the world...and he still easily wins).

Edit: and, again, this is a crappy level 20 fighter. Imagine what a normally built and geared fighter does in that scenario, if the crappy fighter handles it no problem.

What world do you live in that 50% down on hp and with no abilities left, the fighter won't even need to rest? Seriously, you are acting like being half dead from a single fight against low level enemies isn't a big deal. Yes, it shouldn't be that CR 2 enemies nearly killed my level 20 character, even if they are crappily built.

Like, I'm honestly flabberghasted. What state do you expect a PC to be in after a hard fight? 3 hp and a lingering curse of death on their bloodline?

 

[Chaosmancer]

They did a couple things to narrow the gap but at high levels full casters are still ahead, but not as much.

1) surprisingly they nerfed casters. so that helps. there are very few spells that permanently and reliably turn a hard encounter into an easy one. For example, Wizards are among the weaker lower level casters I think. AoE are ok damage, single target not so much. Control spells are weaker but useful. Buff and debuffs help a lot but are not as flashy. Utility is still there but Pf2e still does traditional Vanican for Wizards so less flexibility. Higher levels Wizards get better and probably surpass martials as some lower level spells are still useful and now you have the slots, more powerful utility, more access to stuff to use creatively, etc.

2) Pf2e is pretty much an encounters based system even if they don't admit it so I think that helps.

3) Fighters interact with the 3 action economy better. You can spend you actions on whatever so Fighters can move, attack, something. Or attack attack something. Whereas spells are still mostly 2 actions so the Wizard must often spend their something on Move. The somethings are actually worth it -- The Fighter can get good at Intimidate for instance and a check can inflict a penalty that is similar to spells.

4) High level skill feats can do some cool stuff. Intimidate can scare to death weak monsters, etc. They could have gone further with this. Not many are really all that mythic. So lost opportunity there but there are some. Edit: actually maybe I'm wrong on this as haven't gotten a chance to play high level. Looks like there are a few high level fighter abilities that allow you to do things like reflect spells, sever space in between you and melee attack at range (from a very specific campaign but still), etc. Still not that many I can see but the design space seems to be there.

5) crit threshold is a big deal and Fighters are +2 to hit ahead in attack from any other class which is a big deal in pF2e. Fighters are better at single target damage than spellcasters. So I guess they are actually somewhat better at fighting.

6) there is more reliance on teamwork in the game. The default difficulty is pretty tough and assumes buffing and debuffing to make spells work better and get crits etc. So feels like less of spotlight on that combat "defining spell". Spells do very useful stuff but they contribute not necc. dominate. Occasional a monster does "crit fail" a spell and get completely taken out but it's rare if it's a boss or henchman type. They redefined saves into 4 tiers and many spells have a weaker but still useful effect on a save. Tougher monsters often save and you still get this effect, but it takes teamwork and luck to get a fail or crit fail on a tougher monster.

So, no I don't think high level PF2e feel significantly more mythic but I do think they have a better niche in the game as tough single target damage dealers that are harder to replicate by other classes. With a smattering of better support abilities like the Intimidate feat chain.

Hmmm, a lot of that sounds really interesting. I'm loathe to try and learn pathfinder just to steal ideas though

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would thought (I don't know, it's one of the few books I don't have but been eye balling it) Theros would have had a mythic type martial. That's kind of where I'm at on the topic. I don't think the core rules needs a mythic martial, but a source book that leans into that theme would be a good way to do it. This is all my crummy opinion of course, take that how you will I'm not trying to ruin anyone's way of playing.

Yeah, Theros is a perfect setting for some of the "grow to a myth" style of stories we've discussed briefly here

 

[Chaosmancer]

I suggested thinking about the entire mythic martial class, not just the high level part that people actually want. And I urged folks to put some thought into the narrative that justifies the class in the book, since otherwise its just a pile of special abilities that only exist for mechanical reasons. Those are IMO important questions that need to be answered should anyone create some 3pp or homebrew.

Yeah, I've noticed people still insisting on a narrative that justifies martials being more than farmers with sticks, despite the fact that I know I personally have given at least three, saw anther one from Minigiant, think there was at least one more. So, after six possible explanations maybe more, you wanted to insist that we consider a possible explanation? Was there something lacking in any of the ones we have repeatedly put forth multiple times in this thread?

And of course, the very important "when building a class, make sure you build a class" question. Highly valuable. Most people sitting down to design a class forget that classes have levels from 1 to 20, they usually just start at 15 for some reason.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think this post is a huge waste of times, because WotC clearly doesn't view magical dependencies as a problem and don't want to have fundamental change how the game will play between 2014 and 2024. Bickering on a quite irrelevant topic over 100 pages on a board about how WotC will change the game in next year.

Great. Door to the thread is over there. Have a great rest of your day.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Hmmm, a lot of that sounds really interesting. I'm loathe to try and learn pathfinder just to steal ideas though

i mean...you could also learn pathfinder to play it

 

[Gammadoodler]

I could also say this is all just stuff you "want to say" when you ignore what I was saying.

Certainly you could, if you wanna.

To be fair, I was trying to understand how your statement logically followed from prior conversation more than I was trying to address what you did say.

Now that I know that it doesn't, sure, expecting WoTC to produce a mythic martial class seems more hopeful than realistic at this point.

It just has nothing to do with whether or not they should or counterarguments to the objections folks may have to it.