Necromancy and AL

[RulesJD]

Excuse me for interfering, but to me it seems he's not the one with a problem.

He doesn't mind the way a Necromancer player can't expect, much less demand, to bring undead minions from one table to the next. He's not the one arguing a zombie is a possession like a horse or a sword, even as an absurd comparison...

Please understand and graciously accept that unlike horses or half-orcs, necromancy is controversial and not always appreciated at a table. That's it.

Will you graciously accept that you're being a hypocrite for imposing a penalty on a Necromancer for the reasons you're aspousing?

I've yet to see one argument that doesn't have a literal factually analogous counterclaim.

1. Paladin of good not liking undead = Dwarf hating Half-Orc, Paladin of good hating Tieflings

2. Barovia people don't like undead = (see reference above) they also don't like other races

3. Can't track Zombie/Skeleton numbers/health = Literally the same Notes section for PHB purchases, etc.

4. Can't trust Necromancer players to be honest = can't trust any players to be honest

Even the physical limitations of minionmancy (which you should note was the purpose of my posts all along) are being addressed for table efficiency.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's time for you to be content with the answers you have received.

Good bye.

 

[skerritthegreen]

2. Barovia people don't like undead = (see reference above) they also don't like other races

Not part of this discussion really but for flavor purposes, I hope DMs apply this one to all characters who are not human. The people of Barovia shun outsiders generally. So if you are a dwarf or tiefling or other snowflake, they should think poorly of you or assume you are cursed. You are "other" and that makes them nervous. I regularly run for a tiefling PC who knows he needs to hide his PC's race or the villagers run from him, yell at him to get away, hide, threaten, etc...

 

[RulesJD]

It's time for you to be content with the answers you have received.

Good bye.

It's time for you to offer coherent counter arguments to my points.

See, has about the same effect.



Agreed Skerrit. I tried to play it up a lot more than the written mods established during Season 3 regarding non-humans in Hillsfar. Personally I would LOVE for a mod that shuns Humans (specifically the variant kind...) but I haven't seen anything like that yet. The new mods hint at being anti-elf but there wasn't really anything of substances, even for Wood Elves.

 

[kalani]

The counter argument is this - the AL allows DMs to make judgement calls on things like this. This isn't singling out minionmancers- it's just that things that are ambiguous are subject to DME.

You may not like this argument - but it is a fact.

 

[Steve_MND]

Oh, for the love of god, why hasn't this thread been done with and we moved on or something? At this point, both sides (if you could even call it that) are just arguing hollowly over points already established ages (pages!) ago.

 

[kalani]

Nods, I concur (I too wish this thread would just die). I am just trying to establish facts in AL, and help clear up any misunderstandings people might have....which is part of my job as a member of the campaign staff. It doesn't help when those facts are being argued against.

I get it though - I really do. It would be helpful in some ways if many of the ambiguous rules and DME were stripped away from the DM, but trust me - it isn't all rose-colored-glasses. LFR for example, expected DMs to use the RAW with no exceptions. RAI never entered into the equation, nor did DME. This resulted in

- Players exploiting newly released rules with the DM being powerless to act (zero DME)
- Frequent errata of the complete ruleset (not just LFR, but the entire game)
- Errata which nerfed unbroken rules elements instead of their broken counterparts (eg. errata modifies a common, well-balanced feat in a broken-combo, yet leaves the class feature alone, despite the fact that the feat was fine prior to the class feature being released)
- Erroneous text which was exploitable, with the DM being forced to use the text as written with no interpretation
- No ability to adjust encounters/adventures based on party dynamic.
- Extensive power creep
- An arms race between power-gamers and adventure designers, hedging out casual gamers.

Not all of these issues relate to the lack of DME in LFR, but many of them do. I for one, am quite happy with ALs stance, granting DMs freedom to interpret ambiguous or unclear rules as they see fit, create rulings for their table for situations the rules don't cover, and adjust encounters to suit the party makeup (within reason). The fact that this level of DME grants DMs the ability to prohibit character options that they cannot verify is a blessing overall, as it prevents some degree of cheating at the table.

As always, the golden rule for AL is:
Expect table variation

IMHO players who are unwilling to accept table variation in respect to their favorite character options, lack the maturity to play options in which table variation is inherent... This includes (but is not limited to) minionmancy.

 

[Pauper]

I can "technically" have a paladin warlock that utterly hates undead show up at a table with you and kills your undead as soon as they're summoned. I wouldn't attack you and you couldn't attack me, per no PvP interaction is accepted. I could also get temps for killing your undead and insist that its all legal and not banned. It doesn't make for a mutually accommodating group, build playstyle....

This is pretty much what happened the only time I ever tried playing a necromancer with my long-time home game group -- I showed up being borne on a palanquin carried by zombies, and they killed all my zombies because "they're evil, and by the way where's our money for killing them".

I know that AL is trying to get away from murder-hoboism as a primary playstyle, but sometimes a good party of murder-hobos is just what the doctor ordered!

Also, keep in mind that AL doesn't have a hard-and-fast "you can't attack another PC" rule as Living Forgotten Realms did -- but it does have a hard-and-fast rule about not "undermining" other characters. As a DM, I could totally see allowing a character to attack another character outside of a monster combat to make a point, then cast a healing spell to restore the lost hit points -- that's not undermining the attacked PC, it's expending your own character resources to facilitate role-play. (Depending on the role-play being performed, however, I might still step in if the interaction is abusive or otherwise disruptive to play; if it makes sense within the narrative, though, and everyone seems to be enjoying it or at least is OK with it, then game on.)

--
Pauper

 

[Steve_MND]

The OP just asked for ideas on how to streamline things, which he had some ideas on, and others mentioned that a) that's largely up to the DM and the table he's at how they want to handle a 'horde' of undead based on the time they have, etc., and then others then pointed out the fact (in a pre-emptive effort to potentially clear up any mistaken assumptions) that one can't even be sure any particular judge will allow said horde to continue to progress from one table to the next, at which point, all the bulletpoints were done, like 10 pages ago.

Let it go, folks, this one's done. Everything since has pretty much been either rephrasing of the same things in different terms, unrelated issues, or people getting offended at perceived insults and the like. We all have more enjoyable things we should be doing.

 

[RulesJD]

*snip* I am just trying to establish facts in AL, and help clear up any misunderstandings people might have....which is part of my job as a member of the campaign staff. It doesn't help when those facts are being argued against.

*snip*

As always, the golden rule for AL is:
Expect table variation

IMHO players who are unwilling to accept table variation in respect to their favorite character options, lack the maturity to play options in which table variation is inherent... This includes (but is not limited to) minionmancy.

Except that's not what you're doing. The last statement you make clearly shows that you just simply don't like minionmancy, period. If they were fact as you say then this argument would take about 0.2 seconds because you could point to the object fact and bam, done. Ironically that's actually what I would prefer, to have a clear statement of fact that Animate Dead/Create Undead/Necromancy is or is not an AL legal playstyle. Because it it's an AL legal playstyle, then I have no problem telling an AL DM at a convention game (or otherwise) that they are violating AL rules for refusing to permit a Necromancer to sit at their table or when they start being actively aggressive towards that players.

I'm all for table variation and DM empowerment, when it's done in a fair manner. I dislike it when it's done to specifically target an individual player (seen plenty of times) or a specific playstyle that the DM doesn't happen to like (as you're doing now).

That, in my opinion, is one of AL's primary purposes. To create a set of semi-uniform rules where players get treated fairly. Here, we have a playstyle that literally the campaign staff has said is AL legal. Yet we also have LC/RCs/DMs stating straight up that they would either not treat Necromancers fairly, or even let them play at their table at all through forcing villagers and/or allowing other players to grief the other player.

The true issues presented as being against Necromancers are really just anger at things like players hogging table time, disruptive players, griefing, and honestly just a LOT of leftover feelings from prior versions of D&D. You're entitled to feel however you want, but I absolutely will call out when DMs treat players unfairly for playing or doing something that is entirely AL legal.

The alternative is to issue some actual guidance. Believe it or not I'd be perfectly happy if the campaign staff just bucked up and banned Animate Dead/Create Undead/etc. Because I don't want to waste the significant time and effort on a character that is, in every way, AL legal, only to spend thousands of dollars to go to a convention and be told a DM will not give me a fair game.