NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

U_K!
Hit points, eh?

Well, when you first started ascension, and my gaming group was a bit more regular, I told you about that arena game. One of my players asked what might be good. I told him "Upper Krust's rules appear to grossly favor a very min-maxed fighter type in the long run."
Multiplying hit points could be a good idea. The problem with making damage dividing abilities is that if someone takes them more often than an 'average' number of times, nothing can hurt them. (A spellcaster with the right spells, but choices start being limited with all the easy access to Divine abilities. Portfolios asside)

That said, I don't know what kind of fix is in order, but I would expect it would need to 'look ridiculous' on paper. Just be careful where you put this damage reduction power. Too early, and it becomes too easy to shrugg off damage. Too late, and a well built, but still less than min-maxed, deity crushes your Eternals with the back of his or her hand.
(My sample build for a Greater God of Strength barbarian had him with something like 1200 strength while raging, ~520 while not. Codename while I was working on it was Jorgen von Strangle. Step 1: Grapple. Step 2:???. Step 3: Profit.)

 

[paradox42]

The VSC problem could also be solved by making the VSC determination exponential with size, instead of linear. If creatures of Macro-Tiny size are assumed to have an average STR of 132 (your original 90, plus 42 points from an assumed 1/3 of HD-granted ability score increases for a minimum HD of 512) instead of 90, and the VSC formula scales up by- say, 50 to pull a number out of the hat- instead of 15, then the problem looks more manageable doesn't it? I do think part of the problem with the "Universal average scores by size" table is that you ignored HD/4 increases compared against minimum (or average!) HD for each size. That really does need to be taken into account, or practically every creature of those sizes will have VSCs- which is clearly absurd.

Of course, this makes VSCs no longer quite so easy to calculate, but perhaps they shouldn't be in the first place. If the damage is going up exponentially, then perhaps the necessary STR scores should too- then the functions become mirrors of each other rather than a linear one (current VSC STR) producing exponential results (the damage).

To give a concrete example of what I'm suggesting, how about this: a creature at Medium size gains 1 VSC per 15 STR it has above the "average," as things currently are. A Large creature gains 1 VSC per 20 STR it gains above the average. A Huge one gains 1 VSC per 25, etc... could a scheme like this work? Okay, it doesn't work out to the 50 I suggested above for Macro-Tiny, but like I said I was just pulling a number out of my proverbial hat.

 

[Upper_Krust]

U_K!

Hiya mate!

...and thanks for the feedback Phantom Llama!

Hit points, eh?

Well, when you first started ascension, and my gaming group was a bit more regular, I told you about that arena game. One of my players asked what might be good. I told him "Upper Krust's rules appear to grossly favor a very min-maxed fighter type in the long run."
Multiplying hit points could be a good idea. The problem with making damage dividing abilities is that if someone takes them more often than an 'average' number of times, nothing can hurt them. (A spellcaster with the right spells, but choices start being limited with all the easy access to Divine abilities. Portfolios asside)

I suppose multiplying hit points works the same way.

x2, x5, x10, x100 etc.

That said, I don't know what kind of fix is in order, but I would expect it would need to 'look ridiculous' on paper. Just be careful where you put this damage reduction power. Too early, and it becomes too easy to shrugg off damage. Too late, and a well built, but still less than min-maxed, deity crushes your Eternals with the back of his or her hand.

(My sample build for a Greater God of Strength barbarian had him with something like 1200 strength while raging, ~520 while not. Codename while I was working on it was Jorgen von Strangle. Step 1: Grapple. Step 2:???. Step 3: Profit.)

Okay, much like the mook bank robber from the opening scene of Dirty Harry "I got's to know!?"...how the heck you got 520/1200 strength.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

(Greater god, 5 more Hit dice than minimum)
18 - Base
21 - Stat-ups
192 - Divine Bonuses (Assuming 1:1 portfolio conversion)
64 - Portfolio Bonuses (From strength domain as currently written)

Ruinous Rage
Improved Grapple
Legendary Wrestler
Mighty Rage: +2 Str, +2 Con, -1 Ac while rageing. X47

Unbridled Rage: +2 Str, +2 Con each round.
Divine Immensity: Change size to large.
Ersatz: Construct Traits
Iron Body: Made of Iron
Adamantine Body: Made of Adamantine -
+40 Strength, +20 DR/-, +20 Natural Armor, X16 weight.

Critical Mass: Can't Rage for 1 day, current rage bonuses X10
Transmogrify: Size increases while raging each round. (Replaces Unbridled rage
+10 Strength, +4 con, -2 dex (min 10), AC changes)

+415 Base, Rage: +104 Strength, -52 AC. Size increases each round. (+10 Strength)
At Maximum: Critical Mass on Round 7: 2,235 Strength!

Mind you, this doesn't take into account artifacts. In fact, If I did pick artifacts (or extra divine powers) for him, they would give Legendary Strength and Total Strength. Among other things.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb mate!

Okay, very illuminating.

(Greater god, 5 more Hit dice than minimum)
18 - Base
21 - Stat-ups
192 - Divine Bonuses (Assuming 1:1 portfolio conversion)

I see now that idea could be folly...needless to say I only assumed you could transfer one score, nevermind all five.

64 - Portfolio Bonuses (From strength domain as currently written)

Okay, double strength portfolio.

Ruinous Rage
Improved Grapple
Legendary Wrestler
Mighty Rage: +2 Str, +2 Con, -1 Ac while rageing. X47

Thats 50 feats, an 85th-level epic Barbarian would only have 37 epic feats.

However, I see now I am going to need to halve Mighty Rage (in feat form), otherwise raging will be 'all the rage'.

Unbridled Rage: +2 Str, +2 Con each round.
Divine Immensity: Change size to large.
Ersatz: Construct Traits
Iron Body: Made of Iron
Adamantine Body: Made of Adamantine -
+40 Strength, +20 DR/-, +20 Natural Armor, X16 weight.

Critical Mass: Can't Rage for 1 day, current rage bonuses X10
Transmogrify: Size increases while raging each round. (Replaces Unbridled rage
+10 Strength, +4 con, -2 dex (min 10), AC changes)

Okay, unless I am missing something thats 2 Cosmic Abilities and 5 Divine Abilities = 17 Divine Abilities (when you should only have 16)...I am assuming you are using the variant Divine Rank rules and technically you have a Divine Rank 17 Greater God here, correct?

+415 Base, Rage: +104 Strength, -52 AC. Size increases each round. (+10 Strength)
At Maximum: Critical Mass on Round 7: 2,235 Strength!

Mind you, this doesn't take into account artifacts. In fact, If I did pick artifacts (or extra divine powers) for him, they would give Legendary Strength and Total Strength. Among other things.

Okay, lessons learned.

1. Transfer of divine bonuses to ability scores is broken if either (a) you can use multiple scores, or (b) broken if you allow certain portfolios to do away with the 2:1 exchange rate. The exchange should probably be capped at one transfer per score and at a 2:1 rate.

2. Mighty Rage is overpowered as a feat. It should be halved.

I'll probably need to create a new feat for this, calling it Mighty Rage will only confuse matters.

3. Critical Mass is overpowered...it should probably be triple.

Thanks very much for the feedback.

 

[Pssthpok]

Critical Mass only looks overpowered here. Under a more average setup, CM won't look so egregiously powerful.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

My divine slots were off a bit. (Not too bad though)
As for feats... Epic level barbarian, in ELH gains 1 bonus feat/4 levels in addition to regular feats every 3 levels.

None the less, it isn't too terribly hard to get a strength approaching Time-Lord level at greater god status. (Granted, the though of a time lord totally focused in strength is really ridiculous)

Critical mass is ludicrously strong indeed. It does come with a 'decent' drawback: can't rage for 24 hours. This would be pretty fair to balance the move as a '1-shot'. (IE Turn 1 - Use Critical Mass, Stomp foe) But thats not likely how it would be used: (IE Turn 1 - Rage...*Let strength build through long-duration rage boosting powers*... Turn 20 - Use Critical Mass, Sunder Universe)

Perhaps there should be an additional rule or function of Critical mass that says you either have to activate it when you use a rage, or it costs all your rage uses/day to activate, or that afterwards, you suffer X, Y, and Z horrible penalties.

And yes, Ability conversion is pretty broken indeed. Timelords converting all points into wisdom, and Total Wisdom/Legendary Wisdom, and taking the power that lets them use their highest stat for everything. BWHAHAHAHA!
... Anyway... Perhaps a note that you can't apply more than twice the original template's bonus to a single score. (So if I would normally get +20 strength, I could covert Dex to Strength, but I couldn't get the bonus higher than +40)

 

[Pssthpok]

Did I hear mention of an update today?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Pssthpok matey!

Did I hear mention of an update today?

I was contemplating it, but I think I will wait until Tuesday (which would have been the next planned update).

Its looking like I'll have all the text finished (finally) for Tuesday. I still need to do some work on Religion Building pages and I am sure there are a number of portfolios still needing minor attention, so I'll need to go over that Chapter with a fine toothed comb and then spellcheck chapter 3*. Some stuff from the fix this thread also needs updating.

*I should rename that chapter "Krustbane".

 

[Pssthpok]

There is no emoticon for "constantly disappointed", is there?

JK.