Paladin will slice the cleric, or will the cleric bash the paladin?

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think you can make an arguement that the paladin might win in combat, though it is far from clear cut.

"Might win" as in "might get lucky rolls". (I am talking about no mount involved in the battle.)

People who have not played a paladin often underestimate what a tight stat bind paladins are in. Let's look at a 25 point buy paladin and a melee specialist cleric using the DMG default stats for NPCs:

Paladin Cleric
15 Cha 15 Str
14 Str 14 Con
13 Con 13 Wis
12 Wis 12 Dex
10 Dex 10 Cha
8 Int 8 Int

The only inherent abilities a paladin has going for them over a cleric one on one is a slightly higher BAB, a few extra HPs, and Smite Evil. The BAB and HP difference will effectively vanish if the cleric has better Str, Con, and AC. And, of course, War Clerics get Weapon Focus as well.

The paladin and a fighting cleric are very evenly matched if we assume the cleric doesn't cast any spells. Obviously that is pretty artificial handicap.

Having said that, there are a few tricks that can give the paladin the edge:
(1) Special mount
(2) Leadership feat
(3) Lance attack Power Critical smackdown
(4) Divine Might & Divine Shield smackdown

The last two options require a 12th level paladin who has dedicated her career (feats) to pursuing that specialized fighting style. Of course at that level of power, we might pause to consider that the cleric might actually cast a few spells.

 

[reapersaurus]

finally!
Someone who's played a paladin posts!

Ridley's Cohort has it exactly right:
Paladins are way less effective, and in a terrible point-bind that most people don't realize.

I guarantee you, if you make a melee Paladin (what other kinds are there? ), and I make a melee-based cleric, the cleric will mop the floor with the Paladin.
All the paladin has is a couple BAB on the cleric (Smite is one-shot and alignment dependant, Lay on Hands is so much weaker than Cure spells, Detect Evil? Please.... and his saves are good, but if the cleric's in melee, that's not gonna help him.

Lotsa people assume that Divine Might and/or Divine Shield is for Paladins.
Trust me, it is MUCH more effective for fighter/clerics, or even straight clerics, since melee-clerics get 2 domains, and likely 2 melee feats because of that.

Without the Paladin's mount, than it's not even close - the cleric stomps- especially with 2 rounds prep.

With the horse, MIGHT be another story, but give the cleric a non-bonded mount, and it would be back to no contest again.

YOu can't just say the bonded mount is part of the Paladin class feature package. If you give the Paladin a CR X mount, you gotta give the cleric a CR X animal, too.

 

[Azul]

I think you have to factor in the pally's mount to make a fair comparison since that mount is a major class feature. It's like leaving out the cleric's ability to spontaneously cast curative spells/inflict spells. That steed is a significant portion of the paladin's fighting power, much like a druid's animal companions are a big part of his fighting power.

If you don't include it you are comparing a cleric (with all his advantages) to a watered down paladin. The cleric, already a strong class to begin with, will likely mop the floor with any watered down version of another core class.

 

[Victim]

I think you have to factor in the pally's mount to make a fair comparison since that mount is a major class feature. It's like leaving out the cleric's ability to spontaneously cast curative spells/inflict spells. That steed is a significant portion of the paladin's fighting power, much like a druid's animal companions are a big part of his fighting power.

If you don't include it you are comparing a cleric (with all his advantages) to a watered down paladin. The cleric, already a strong class to begin with, will likely mop the floor with any watered down version of another core class.

That might be true, except that for medium size paladins, the mount is such a situational ability that it doesn't matter. If the fight takes place inside most structures, then the warhorse doesn't matter, for example. An ability that's crippled in dungeons, urban areas, heavily wooded areas, most surprise attacks, etc isn't exactly one I'd rely heavily on.

 

[Berk]

Cleric all the way. A brilliantly designed cleric can kick the crap outta any other brilliantly designed class.

 

[LokiDR]

Alhandra vs Jozan

There are stats for "standard" iconic characters in enemies and allies, so here is the published 5th level iconic paladin vs 5th level cleric.

Alhandra: 37 hp, AC 21, +9 for 1d8+3 on longsword, + 7 on lance (1d8+2), +6 ranged (1d8+2 masterwork bow and arrows). Saves of 9, 4, and 6. Wand of cure light, lay on hands for 15. Warhorse +2 HD, +4 natural armor, +1 str in leather barding.

Jozan: 36 hp, AC 21, +5 on mace (1d8+2) +4 ranged crossbow. (1d8+1). Saves 7, 1, 8. Relavent spells: command, doom, bull's str, hold person, searing light. (the rest don't apply to a paladin fight, such as cause fear)

The fight: even initive. Jozan wins, he casts hold person DC 15. Alhandra makes the save 60% of the time. If Alhandra wins or makes the save, she charges. 2d8+4 hitting 35% of the time 4.55 damage. Jozan AoOs for 1d8+2 hitting 25% for 1.625 damage. After that, Alhandra hits with the longsword for 1d8+3 at 45% for 3.375 The question is whether Jozan will be able to keep ahead of the damage with healing spells. Alhandra's wand sinches it though, with more healing than Jozen can dish out.

Alhandra wins 60% of time based on one save.

Depending on the response to this, I may take a look at 10th level iconics.

 

[Artoomis]

That might be true, except that for medium size paladins, the mount is such a situational ability that it doesn't matter. If the fight takes place inside most structures, then the warhorse doesn't matter, for example. An ability that's crippled in dungeons, urban areas, heavily wooded areas, most surprise attacks, etc isn't exactly one I'd rely heavily on.

True. That's why my personal paladin character is a halfling. His celestial war dog can go anywhere that he can, pretty much.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

LokiDR,

That is a good start, but those are the stats for a generic healing cleric, not a cleric optimized for melee. You also forgot that the cleric will have domain powers. Asking a cleric to fight without domain powers is like asking a paladin to fight without a horse.

Alhandra's wand is an artificial advantage. Jozan is allowed to have a wand, too.

If Jozan is going to fight like a dumb grunt, we should design him for the role:

16 Str (+1 @ 4th)
14 Con
13 Wis (will increase this @ 8th)
12 Dex
10 Int
8 Cha

This cleric intends to chop up undead, not turn them. Now he has AC 23. Give him War and Destruction Domains. That gives him Weapon Focus and a smite. (Death and Animal domains would be much nastier.)

I think we should take magical equipment out of the equation. Unless you are talking about a Holy Sword, there are no items that give a big edge to the paladin, while there are a few that really help the cleric.

BTW, 5th/6th level is the optimal point on the power curve for a paladin to beat a cleric. If the paladin can't win hands down there, he never will. Also, if we are going to put the paladin on a horse, the cleric gets one, too -- though it will help the cleric less.

 

[LokiDR]

Ridley's Cohort, you miss the point. Both Alhandra and Jozan were designed to be general members of a party. If you want to get into one-upmanship, this disscussion can go nowhere. The iconic characters are a good basis free of external constraints. Clerics you focus on beating things are not clerics in general. The published Iconics are free of my or your bias.

Now, if you believe I made some tatical errors in evaluating the fight, that is a different matter. To your specific points:

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort
LokiDR,

That is a good start, but those are the stats for a generic healing cleric, not a cleric optimized for melee. You also forgot that the cleric will have domain powers. Asking a cleric to fight without domain powers is like asking a paladin to fight without a horse.

Jozan, cleric of Palor, domains of Good and Healing. I didn't forget about domains, they just weren't that relevant. Alhandra's mount was relevant. I did make a tatical error, as the horse can attack as well as Alhandra.

Optimizing for melee is an exersize in powergaming. I am trying to specifically make this an impartial compareson, hence published PCs.

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort
Alhandra's wand is an artificial advantage. Jozan is allowed to have a wand, too.

Alhandra had the wand listed as equipment, where Jozan didn't. Jozan has his daily spells to use. I didn't make these characters, which is why this is an impartial combat.

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort
If Jozan is going to fight like a dumb grunt, we should design him for the role:

That isn't impartial.

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort
I think we should take magical equipment out of the equation. Unless you are talking about a Holy Sword, there are no items that give a big edge to the paladin, while there are a few that really help the cleric.

Changing AC by a few points could make a difference in the long run. Boosting constitution by 4 would yield 10 hp. Equipment is a big part of a character.

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort
BTW, 5th/6th level is the optimal point on the power curve for a paladin to beat a cleric. If the paladin can't win hands down there, he never will. Also, if we are going to put the paladin on a horse, the cleric gets one, too -- though it will help the cleric less.

I don't know if 5/6 is optimal for Alhandra. Jozan just got 3rd level spells. If he had travel domain, he could fly out of reach of Alhandra and hightened hold person/searing light. Alhandra's mount didn't make a big difference in this case, but it could have been used to flank.

 

[Gizzard]

Depending on the response to this, I may take a look at 10th level iconics.

I suspect that it only gets worse for the poor Paladin as the levels go up and the spellcasting becomes more powerful.

Alhandra wins 60% of time based on one save.

You didn't let Jozan cast Bull's Strength and just go toe-to-toe with the Paladin. He's not going to win an even share of those combats, but if he can win even 25% then Alhandra's overall win percentage drops to 45%.

The funny thing is that they're pretty evenly matched in combat since Jozan can self-buff. But that wand totally swings the balance. What magic did Jozan spend his cash on, since he obviously didn't think of getting his own wand? :-/

-edit-

Thinking more about this, Jozan has a lot of healing power he's not using. 3 useless 3rd level spells, 2 x 2nd, and 2 x 1st. Thats 15d8 + about 30 points in caster bonuses. He can squeeze another couple d8 out if he gives up Bless etc. He's actually close to racing the wand.