D&D 5E Preview 3: Rings

[KarinsDad]

I can't imaging a warlock ever not wanting hex.

Since Hex is a concentration spell, it will get dropped fairly quickly in combat (unless the Warlock is rarely attacked, but in that case, he would rarely have the need for multiple Hex spells). The entire pact weapon concept is the antithesis of casting the Hex spell since it will tend to go down so quickly.

Sure, it is better than not having one or two extra Hexes a day, but it's not really that strong. If the warlock manages 2 extra Hexes per day and those Hexes last 6 rounds each before the Warlock gets hit and loses concentration, that's typically at most 12D6 extra damage that he can do (all of his attacks have to hit), so typically 28 extra damage a day (if a typical 2 out of 3 attacks hit). A Wizard with 5 Magic Missile spells in the same ring can do an average of 52 extra damage minus any damage he would have done using a cantrip instead (~21 for Firebolt) or about 31 extra damage per day. A Wizard with a 3rd level Fireball will often do 50 to 100 extra damage.

I'm not seeing where 28 extra points of damage a day is all that great.

Sure, the Warlock can hide super far in the back, cast Hex, and then rarely get hit. But again, so? Maybe one day he does 50 extra points a day with his two additional Hex spells.

In addition, once a Warlock gets to 5th level, he can only store one spell at a time in the ring (of his spells). Other PCs can put a few more low level spells into the ring, but at level 5 the Warlock has 3rd level spell slots, so he can only put in one of his own spells.

If you're lucky enough to get the opportunity to store a second spell before the hex runs out, scorching ray is a pretty sure bet, shatter or vampiric touch if you aren't a hell-lock. Or just put another hex in and feel free to use up the rest of your slots.

Every argument you've made applies to all magic-users, not just warlocks. But it's a bigger deal for warlocks because, of all the classes that rely on magic, they are the most likely to run out of slots. The extra freedom afforded by this ring makes far more of a difference to them, even if it turns out they can't recharge it at every rest. (And if there's another spellcaster in the party, that's far less likely to be a problem.)

The difference is that other spell casters can put 1 to 5 spells in the ring, the Warlock can only put 5 of his own spells in at levels 1 and 2 (a time when he probably won't own such a ring), 2 in at levels 3 and 4, and 1 in at levels 5+.

That's a pretty heavy restriction on the ring.

A Cleric? 5 Cure Wounds. An Aid and a Mass Healing Word. There are dozens and dozens of good combinations.

A Wizard? 5 Burning Hands. 5 Sleeps. 2 Invisibilities and a Feather Fall. And for the spells the Wizard puts into the ring, he might not have to prep them that day, so he has even more versatility.

Lot's of versatility. The Warlock, not so much.


As for the Warlock running out of spells, yes, he can fairly easily run out of normal spells.

But you cannot have it both ways. Either the Warlock is not easily running out of spell slots between short rests (in which case he can recharge the ring, but doesn't really need the ring since he doesn't use up all of his slots between short rests), or as you claim, the Warlock does easily run out of spells shots between short rests (in which case he cannot recharge the ring anyway shy of taking 2 short rests back to back).

So it either doesn't help him a lot, or he cannot recharge it.

Example 1:

Warlock with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts the spell from the ring and all but one spell (x-1) of his own. Before the short rest, he puts a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. He could always cast x spells without owning the ring, so he is no better off than he was at the start of the day.

Example 2:

Warlock with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts all of his spells and one spell from the ring. Before the short rest, he cannot put a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. After the short rest, he has no spells in the ring and he has his full complement remaining. He has so far only gained one extra spell from the ring total.

It's OK if you don't believe me, though. I'm getting the impression that you don't play a warlock, so you don't need to understand.

I don't believe you because what you say doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yes, the ring gives a Warlock 1 or 2, sometimes even 3 extra spells per day at his "highest spell slot level". But the Warlock does not gain the level of versatility that other spell casters gain with the ring.


If you are going to argue how much better it is for a Warlock than for other spell casting classes, you need to provide examples as to why it is better to illustrate your POV. Just saying so doesn't make it so. Warlocks only gain a few extra spells with the ring. Other classes gain extra spells plus they gain extra versatility.


The extra 2 spells a day for a Warlock at best maybe two Blight spells for 18D6 extra damage a day (63 points, less with saves). A Wizard could do that much extra damage with a single 3rd level Fireball and still have 2 spell slots left over in the ring.

Sorry, not seeing it.

Maybe if you come up with some examples that strengthen your argument. But I understand quite well, thank you. Your argument just isn't strong enough to be convincing.

 

[Stalker0]

Since Hex is a concentration spell, it will get dropped fairly quickly in combat.

If hex was cast from the ring, it would be immune from concentration breaking wouldn't it?

 

[KarinsDad]

If hex was cast from the ring, it would be immune from concentration breaking wouldn't it?

No. The spell is cast from the ring by the user of the ring. It's still a concentration spell. It still requires concentration from the caster. Nothing in the ring description (or in magic items in general TMK) changes this.

 

[Valetudo]

If hex was cast from the ring, it would be immune from concentration breaking wouldn't it?

No, it would still use up your concentration slot.

 

[Leatherhead]

If hex was cast from the ring, it would be immune from concentration breaking wouldn't it?

Now that would be broken.

I could maybe see some weird ruling where it required the person who cast the spell into the ring to maintain concentration, but having the item maintain it is just asking for trouble.

 

[Joe Liker]

Since Hex is a concentration spell, it will get dropped fairly quickly in combat (unless the Warlock is rarely attacked, but in that case, he would rarely have the need for multiple Hex spells). The entire pact weapon concept is the antithesis of casting the Hex spell since it will tend to go down so quickly.

Most pact blade warlocks who know what they are doing aren't going to have their concentration so easily broken. But the purpose of this thread is not for me to teach you how to be a good warlock. If you honestly believe bladelocks shouldn't use hex, you should probably just go ahead and bow out of this conversation.

Sure, it is better than not having one or two extra Hexes a day, but it's not really that strong. If the warlock manages 2 extra Hexes per day and those Hexes last 6 rounds each before the Warlock gets hit and loses concentration, that's typically at most 12D6 extra damage that he can do (all of his attacks have to hit), so typically 28 extra damage a day (if a typical 2 out of 3 attacks hit). A Wizard with 5 Magic Missile spells in the same ring can do an average of 52 extra damage minus any damage he would have done using a cantrip instead (~21 for Firebolt) or about 31 extra damage per day. A Wizard with a 3rd level Fireball will often do 50 to 100 extra damage.

In your previous post, you were condemning fireball because it's not always going to be a useful spell. Stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying. And a lot of warlocks can cast fireball, so you're not even making sense.

In addition, once a Warlock gets to 5th level, he can only store one spell at a time in the ring (of his spells). Other PCs can put a few more low level spells into the ring, but at level 5 the Warlock has 3rd level spell slots, so he can only put in one of his own spells.

The difference is that other spell casters can put 1 to 5 spells in the ring, the Warlock can only put 5 of his own spells in at levels 1 and 2 (a time when he probably won't own such a ring), 2 in at levels 3 and 4, and 1 in at levels 5+.

That's a pretty heavy restriction on the ring.

Again, it's extremely unlikely that any character will get this ring at 5th level. That's the minimum recommended level for a rare item.

A Cleric? 5 Cure Wounds. An Aid and a Mass Healing Word. There are dozens and dozens of good combinations.

A Wizard? 5 Burning Hands. 5 Sleeps. 2 Invisibilities and a Feather Fall. And for the spells the Wizard puts into the ring, he might not have to prep them that day, so he has even more versatility.

Lot's of versatility. The Warlock, not so much.

Everything you just said applies to those same classes without the ring. Clerics and wizards are more versatile than warlocks, period. Why would the ring change that? Who said it was supposed to?

As for the Warlock running out of spells, yes, he can fairly easily run out of normal spells.

But you cannot have it both ways. Either the Warlock is not easily running out of spell slots between short rests (in which case he can recharge the ring, but doesn't really need the ring since he doesn't use up all of his slots between short rests), or as you claim, the Warlock does easily run out of spells shots between short rests (in which case he cannot recharge the ring anyway shy of taking 2 short rests back to back).

So it either doesn't help him a lot, or he cannot recharge it.

You can't have it both ways at the same time, but you can certainly have it both ways over the course of a few days' adventure. Sometimes the warlock will have a spell slot left over, and this ring would let him save that slot for later. Sometimes he will not have a slot left over, which means it's a good thing he had the ring that day because he clearly needed it.

Example 1:

Warlock with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts the spell from the ring and all but one spell (x-1) of his own. Before the short rest, he puts a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. He could always cast x spells without owning the ring, so he is no better off than he was at the start of the day.

Wizard with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts the spell from the ring and all but one spell (x-1) of his own. Before the short rest, he puts a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. He could always cast x spells without owning the ring, so he is no better off than he was at the start of the day.

Your point?

Warlock with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts all of his spells and one spell from the ring. Before the short rest, he cannot put a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. After the short rest, he has no spells in the ring and he has his full complement remaining. He has so far only gained one extra spell from the ring total.

Wizard with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts all of his spells and one spell from the ring. Before the short rest, he cannot put a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. After the short rest, he has no spells in the ring and he might get some slots back via Arcane Recovery. He has so far only gained one extra spell from the ring total.

Your point?

Yes, the ring gives a Warlock 1 or 2, sometimes even 3 extra spells per day at his "highest spell slot level". But the Warlock does not gain the level of versatility that other spell casters gain with the ring.

A warlock will never have that level of versatility. But he does gain significant wiggle room, where before he had zero.

If you are going to argue how much better it is for a Warlock than for other spell casting classes, you need to provide examples as to why it is better to illustrate your POV. Just saying so doesn't make it so. Warlocks only gain a few extra spells with the ring. Other classes gain extra spells plus they gain extra versatility.

I never said it was better for warlocks than for other classes. Obviously, it's a great item for any spellcaster.

The extra 2 spells a day for a Warlock at best maybe two Blight spells for 18D6 extra damage a day (63 points, less with saves). A Wizard could do that much extra damage with a single 3rd level Fireball and still have 2 spell slots left over in the ring.

Raw damage is not the sole measure of effectiveness. Your argument is invalid.

Sorry, not seeing it.

Don't care. I'm just glad you're not playing a warlock on my team, because you obviously don't understand the class.

Maybe if you come up with some examples that strengthen your argument. But I understand quite well, thank you. Your argument just isn't strong enough to be convincing.

And yet others agree with me. If you're the only one ranting about how someone else's position makes no sense, it might be time to reconsider your own position.

 

[KarinsDad]

Most pact blade warlocks who know what they are doing aren't going to have their concentration so easily broken. But the purpose of this thread is not for me to teach you how to be a good warlock. If you honestly believe bladelocks shouldn't use hex, you should probably just go ahead and bow out of this conversation.

Nice try. Deflecting without explaining does nothing for your POV.

In your previous post, you were condemning fireball because it's not always going to be a useful spell. Stop moving the goalposts. It's annoying. And a lot of warlocks can cast fireball, so you're not even making sense.

This is called conversing on more than one point in a conversation at a time. Different points for different ideas. I cannot help it if it annoys you that people can approach a topic from multiple different angles.

Again, it's extremely unlikely that any character will get this ring at 5th level. That's the minimum recommended level for a rare item.

Precisely. Which means that the ring typically contains 1 warlock spell in it.

Everything you just said applies to those same classes without the ring. Clerics and wizards are more versatile than warlocks, period. Why would the ring change that? Who said it was supposed to?

The people who are arguing that this is better for a warlock than for other spell casting classes by ignoring the additional utility that it gives to the other spell casting classes.

The statement is "this gives the warlock more spells, but not more versatility" and the statement "this gives other casters more spells and more versatility" still holds. You haven't disproven these statements. In fact, you haven't even addressed them.

You can't have it both ways at the same time, but you can certainly have it both ways over the course of a few days' adventure. Sometimes the warlock will have a spell slot left over, and this ring would let him save that slot for later. Sometimes he will not have a slot left over, which means it's a good thing he had the ring that day because he clearly needed it.

Sorry, but you just are not getting it. The ring either does not help him more pre-short rest, or he cannot recharge it. Either condition does not make the ring more useful to him than it was at the very start of the day. One more spell per day. That's it shy of back to back short rests.

Wizard with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts the spell from the ring and all but one spell (x-1) of his own. Before the short rest, he puts a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. He could always cast x spells without owning the ring, so he is no better off than he was at the start of the day.

Your point?

Wizard with full complement of spells and a full ring before a short rest casts all of his spells and one spell from the ring. Before the short rest, he cannot put a spell into the ring. Net gain zero. After the short rest, he has no spells in the ring and he might get some slots back via Arcane Recovery. He has so far only gained one extra spell from the ring total.

Your point?

I am not trying to prove that wizards can re-use the ring more than once a day per spell slots used.

I am illustrating that wizards can prep more different types of spells per day and making them more versatile (same with Clerics).

If you cannot get the point, I cannot help you.

I'll say it again. Warlocks get one or two additional spells per day. Other spell casters get additional spells per day AND they get to prep more different types of spells per day (normal prep plus spells in ring).

That's the reason your POV is weak and not well supported. You have yet to even address this point, let alone disprove it.

A warlock will never have that level of versatility. But he does gain significant wiggle room, where before he had zero.

No, he has 2 or 3 or 4 such spells (level dependent) after any given short rest even without the ring. 1 or 2 more a day when he can have a dozen in a given day is not a lot of wiggle room. This does even include his other spells that do not use up spell slots.

I never said it was better for warlocks than for other classes. Obviously, it's a great item for any spellcaster.

Really?

But it's a bigger deal for warlocks because, of all the classes that rely on magic, they are the most likely to run out of slots.

Make up your mind.

Raw damage is not the sole measure of effectiveness. Your argument is invalid.

Not invalid, just incomplete. Show a case where the ring helps the Warlock more in a non-damage scenario than a non-warlock.

Don't care. I'm just glad you're not playing a warlock on my team, because you obviously don't understand the class.

Ad Hominem.

Typical.

And yet others agree with me. If you're the only one ranting about how someone else's position makes no sense, it might be time to reconsider your own position.

Argumentum Ad Populum.

Typical.