D&D 5E Ritual Caster vs. Magic Initiate vs. Warlock dip for Dex Paladin (Ancients)

[mellored]

Hmm... so I guess at 11th level GFB or BB would start to do more damage than Extra Attack?

And I guess Eldritch Blast would also start doing more damage than two longbow attacks... even without adding CHA to the damage.

That's kinda lame, actually.

Paladin 11 will do more with multi-attack than GFB or BB.
But GFB/BB will do more than multi-attacking with a paladin 9/warlock 2.

Bow users can will get things like archery style, crossbow expertise, sharpshooter, magic weapon, sneak attack, etc.. all adding up to more than EB (or firebolt for wizard/sorcerers).


Cantrips aren't the best. They are just cheap and scale automatically, allowing you to focus on getting other features, and multi-class (respectivly).

 

[intently]

Paladin 11 will do more with multi-attack than GFB or BB.
But GFB/BB will do more than multi-attacking with a paladin 9/warlock 2.

Bow users can will get things like archery style, crossbow expertise, sharpshooter, magic weapon, sneak attack, etc.. all adding up to more than EB (or firebolt for wizard/sorcerers).


Cantrips aren't the best. They are just cheap and scale automatically, allowing you to focus on getting other features, and multi-class (respectivly).

I'm planning for bows to be a secondary weapon, with rapier for primary.

Do you mean that a p9/w2 would do better with cantrips than a p11 would do with extra attack?

 

[mellored]

I'm planning for bows to be a secondary weapon, with rapier for primary.

Do you mean that a p9/w2 would do better with cantrips than a p11 would do with extra attack?

p11 would be better at melee, but worse at range. Improved divine smite doen't apply to ranged attacks.

multi-attack = 4d8+dex+dex
vs
booming blade = 3d8+dex (5d8+dex if it moves).

ranged would be
multi-attack 2d8+dex+dex
eldirch blast 3d10+cha+cha+cha

 

[intently]

multi-attack = 4d8+dex+dex
vs
booming blade = 3d8+dex (5d8+dex if it moves).

ranged would be
multi-attack 2d8+dex+dex
eldirch blast 3d10+cha+cha+cha

EB average (CHA 18): 28.5
melee multi-attack (DEX 18): 26

That's... really lame. And it gets worse as DEX/CHA increase.

p11 would be better at melee, but worse at range. Improved divine smite doen't apply to ranged attacks.

Seems like EB is just flat-out better, and would be even if you could use Divine Smite with bows. It's not too hard to stay out of melee. What a disappointment

 

[mellored]

EB average (CHA 18): 28.5
melee multi-attack (DEX 18): 26

That's... really lame. And it gets worse as DEX/CHA increase.

I forgot dualist fighting style...

eb = 28.5
rapier = 30

Also, you can't smite with EB. Or use a magic weapon (there are magic rods, but they don't add +to damage).
So with a +2 weapon it would be....

eb = 28.5 + 1st level warlock spells + 1 to all saves+ 1 AC - weak in melee.
rapier = 34 + smites + immunity to fear + 1 to inititive - weak at ranged.

 

[Ovarwa]

So,

The thing I like about Pa/Tome multiclass is their versatility. Ranged or melee, they have great options. The ability to switch matters, because for me, the central golden feature of Paladin is the level 6 bonus to saves for nearby allies. Want to protect the squishy wizard and sorcerer? Hang back and EB. Want to help and protect the rogue and barbarian? Wade into combat alongside them and smite. With two spell lists, plenty of spell slots, invocations, rituals, plate armor, a combat style, always-on party support, a familiar and a likeable smile, you have an answer for almost everything.

But the full package doesn't quite come online until level 11. (Pa7 for the secondary benefit/Tome3 for shillelagh/either1 for Cha20).

Anyway,

Ken

 

[intently]

I forgot dualist fighting style...

eb = 28.5
rapier = 30

Also, you can't smite with EB. Or use a magic weapon (there are magic rods, but they don't add +to damage).
So with a +2 weapon it would be....

eb = 28.5 + 1st level warlock spells + 1 to all saves+ 1 AC - weak in melee.
rapier = 34 + smites + immunity to fear + 1 to inititive - weak at ranged.

Smites are a limited resource, so they don't directly compare to EB I don't think.

But Dueling is definitely important, as are magic weapons! I feel better now.

Multi-attack with +2 bow, DEX 18 = (1d8+2+4)*2 = 21 -- plus Branding Smite, if desired

 

[intently]

So,

The thing I like about Pa/Tome multiclass is their versatility. Ranged or melee, they have great options. The ability to switch matters, because for me, the central golden feature of Paladin is the level 6 bonus to saves for nearby allies. Want to protect the squishy wizard and sorcerer? Hang back and EB. Want to help and protect the rogue and barbarian? Wade into combat alongside them and smite. With two spell lists, plenty of spell slots, invocations, rituals, plate armor, a combat style, always-on party support, a familiar and a likeable smile, you have an answer for almost everything.

But the full package doesn't quite come online until level 11. (Pa7 for the secondary benefit/Tome3 for shillelagh/either1 for Cha20).

Anyway,

Ken

Yes, that sounds awesome. Playing Storm King's Thunder now, and it seems unlikely we'll get past 11 by the end.