Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 4)

[Ghostwalker_Daishi]

One question: How many/what kind of lineages are we looking at for our goal? 3? 15? 80 Grafrillion?

 

[Khaalis]

One question: How many/what kind of lineages are we looking at for our goal? 3? 15? 80 Grafrillion?

There IS no goal. The lineage sorcerer follows the same pattern as Monte's Arcana Unearthed examples of templated class: theWitch, Totem Warrior and Champion classes. The lineages presented originally are some of the more common examples, but in the end they are still templated examples. There is no limit beyond others' imaginations as to what lineages can and will evolve.

 

[Coredump]

hmmm.... personally, I think that the unweaving/weaving should come at a definite cost.

Do you feel that 3 3rd level spells are worth less than one 4th level spell? (in general, not in specific situations) The 'core' method was definitely a cost. (one 3rd level gained for a 4th level lost), but an expensive one. It doesn't have to be that expensive, but it should be a cost. I don't really see giving up a 4th for 2 3rds as much of a hardship. I would reduce it to equal levels, or perhaps level plus one. (so a 5th could be a 3 and 2)

As for weaving, the problem is higher level, I think 3 3rds and a 2nd is worth much less than the 9th level I can get. Or even the 2 3rds and 2nd for the 6th level. While two levels 'wasted' may be enough of a cost, a mechanic saying you can only weave 2 spell slots may limit it enough. (So, for the 9th, you need a 6 and 5, or 7-4, or 8-3.) this stops the ability to give up a bunch of useless slots for the powerful spell. Or perhaps a mechanic that increases the 'waste' the more spells used. Like +1 for each slot used, or for each 2 slots used.

Just some ideas, and not well written ones at that...

.

 

[Samothdm]

Your Section 15

I really like a lot of these ideas you have and might tweak some of them for my own campaign. One of the things that's bothered a fellow DM and I is that there's really no reason for a sorcerer to progress all the way to 20th level when there are tons of "+1 spellcaster level" PrCs out there.

Just a minor note for your Section 15: you've referenced some rules ideas from Forgotten Heroes: Sorcerer and also OGC from Unearthed Arcana so you'll need to list those in your Section 15. Also, you forgot to list yourself. You'll want to add a line at the end with your name (or a "company name") and the copyright date of this material.

Copyrights are "free" - you don't apply for them. Simply putting down "This material is (C) 2004 by Khaalis" is good enough. That in theory should protect you should someone try to lift your non-OGC (such as your layout, borders, etc.) and put it into their work. But, IAMAL so you may want to ask someone in the Publishing Forum for advice on this.

 

[pyk]

You should post this over to WotC's boards. A couple of folks there would drool over this concept.

 

[Khaalis]

hmmm.... personally, I think that the unweaving/weaving should come at a definite cost.
Do you feel that 3 3rd level spells are worth less than one 4th level spell? (in general, not in specific situations) The 'core' method was definitely a cost. (one 3rd level gained for a 4th level lost), but an expensive one. It doesn't have to be that expensive, but it should be a cost. I don't really see giving up a 4th for 2 3rds as much of a hardship. I would reduce it to equal levels, or perhaps level plus one. (so a 5th could be a 3 and 2)
As for weaving, the problem is higher level, I think 3 3rds and a 2nd is worth much less than the 9th level I can get. Or even the 2 3rds and 2nd for the 6th level. While two levels 'wasted' may be enough of a cost, a mechanic saying you can only weave 2 spell slots may limit it enough. (So, for the 9th, you need a 6 and 5, or 7-4, or 8-3.) this stops the ability to give up a bunch of useless slots for the powerful spell. Or perhaps a mechanic that increases the 'waste' the more spells used. Like +1 for each slot used, or for each 2 slots used.
Just some ideas, and not well written ones at that...

This is particularly why the system is an option. It is designed to give the sorcerer a more “free form” feel but at a cost – unlike a spell point system, but it remains an option not a part of the core class. You could make it a feat as well. On a personal note, I feel that the 4 lower level spells (3 3rd and 2nd) are worth far more than a 9th level spell. That is a reflection of my feelings on most 9th level spells however. Even a Wish is limited in its scope and not as useful in most cases as casting a variety of lower level spells. However, on the same note, I have no personal issue with a sorcerer burning through their daily allotment of spells ultra fast to cast a very small number of higher level spells if that is really what they want to do. I am more a fan of diversity and utility style than the “big-bang” style. In most cases in an “real” campaign, not a “one shot arena” style encounter, a sorcerer (or any caster) is much better off being able to cast those 3 3rd level spells and 2nd level spell (possibly covering/solving 4 encounters) rather than burning them all for a 9th level spell to conclude 1 encounter. Even as a pure invoker, 3 3rd levels and a 2nd level damage spell are generally worth more than a 9th level spell in the overall picture. But again, that’s just my personal opinion.

I really like a lot of these ideas you have and might tweak some of them for my own campaign. One of the things that's bothered a fellow DM and I is that there's really no reason for a sorcerer to progress all the way to 20th level when there are tons of "+1 spellcaster level" PrCs out there.

Just a minor note for your Section 15: {snip}

Thanks for the comments. The revised version is finally posted. I tried to do this earlier but Frontpage sucks and doesn’t overwrite existing files on a publish, so I had to go in and manually ftp the changes.

You should post this over to WotC's boards. A couple of folks there would drool over this concept.

What board would you suggest? Are they tolerant of such works? I got the impression most of the WotC boards were WotC material purists…

Thanks for the input. More is welcome.

 

[pyk]

What board would you suggest? Are they tolerant of such works? I got the impression most of the WotC boards were WotC material purists?

Thanks for the input. More is welcome.

Over at WotC, they've been talking A LOT about how the sorcerer needs to be fixed, just like you folks have.

Try this board:

Discussing things with Skip Williams!

They can help to tell you if your ideas are balanced against the other classes or not.

 

[Khaalis]

Discussing things with Skip Williams!

Yeah, um, well... I guess I should say thanks for the bump but considering the context in which was handed out...

 

[Evilhalfling]

Child of Nature lineage unbalanced?

Wonderful thread guys, I finally quit lurking in response to it.
However some of the last batch of lineages could use tweaking. The Child of Nature lineage seemed perfect for a new player’s Barbarian/Sorcerer, but really all druid spells? Including easy access to healing? I tweaked it to only plant and animal domains. The benefits seem out of scale as well…The druid gets woodland stride at 2nd and trackless step at 3rd while the sorcerer gets both at 1st?
How 'bout
1st animal empathy and cast lineage abilities at +1 caster level
8th woodland stride and trackless (1 level behind the ranger)
14th wild shape as 7th level druid (possibly with advancement)
Comments?

 

[Khaalis]

Wonderful thread guys, I finally quit lurking in response to it.
However some of the last batch of lineages could use tweaking. The Child of Nature lineage seemed perfect for a new player’s Barbarian/Sorcerer, but really all druid spells? Including easy access to healing? I tweaked it to only plant and animal domains. The benefits seem out of scale as well…The druid gets woodland stride at 2nd and trackless step at 3rd while the sorcerer gets both at 1st?
How 'bout
1st animal empathy and cast lineage abilities at +1 caster level
8th woodland stride and trackless (1 level behind the ranger)
14th wild shape as 7th level druid (possibly with advancement)
Comments?

Thanks for the input and comments. I thought this was a dead thread.

As for the Child of Nature…
Let me start with spell access. The logic of receiving all Druid spells is primarily due to simplicity. I did not want to get into a long list of approved spells. The second issue is that everyone keeps saying how much weaker divine spells are than arcane, and that druid spells are generally even weaker than cleric spells.

The problem I have with Plant and Animal spells only is – well basically - they suck to be blunt about it. These spells are basically worthless to a sorcerer for anything other than flavor. The sorcerer is hard pressed enough as it is to pick decent spells. However with that said, a Child of Nature should have a druidic flair, as they are a “divinely” inspired sorcerer – gaining their power as a grant from some higher power. Thus I also have no issue with them getting limited access to healing. Druids do not have healing at as good a rate as clerics to begin with, and if the sorcerer wants to burn their spells known to be a secondary healer, I don’t have an issue with it. The other issue with the spells is that the nature sorcerer should have access to spells like Shillelagh, Longstrider, Commune with Nature, Call Lightning, Flamestrike etc. These are far more fitting to the sorcerous nature of the class as divine agents of nature’s wrath. To gain access to all the summoning, conjuration, transformation, elemental, etc. spells that the core concept should have access to, the only way is to allow the whole Druid list. Keep in mind – the sorcerer’s limited spells known is the primary limiting factor here.
Honestly, how many people are going to choose the overall weaker Druid spells over arcane spells? As an example – would you take Call Lightning or Lightning Bolt? For the most part the druid spells add a variant form of utility spells.

Now as for Overall Balance issues with class abilities I don’t really see any issues.

Nature Sorcerer Abilities
1: Woodland Stride, Trackless Step
2: Detect Magic (Cha mod/day)
5: Summon Nature’s Ally I (Cha mod/day)
8: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; Cha mod/day)
11: Summon Nature’s Ally II (Cha mod/day)
14: Wild Shape (Small-Large; Cha mod/day)
17: Summon Nature’s Ally III (Cha mod/day)
20: Outsider = Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, DR 10/cold iron, Immunity-Fey Magic

Druid Abilities
1: Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy
2: Woodland Stride
3: Trackless Step
4: Resist Nature’s Lure
5: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; 1/day)
6: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; 2/day)
7: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; 3/day)
8: Wild Shape (Small-Large; 3/day)
9: Venom Immunity
10: Wild Shape (Small-Large; 4/day)
11: Wild Shape (Tiny-Large; 4/day)
12: Wild Shape (Tiny-Large; Plant; 4/day)
13: Thousand Faces
14: Wild Shape (Tiny-Large; Plant; 5/day)
15: Timeless Body, Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 5/day)
16: Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 5/day), Elemental Shape (Small-Large; 1/day)
18: Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 6/day), Elemental Shape (Small-Large; 2/day)
20: Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 6/day), Elemental Shape (Small-Huge; 3/day)

Sorcerer Spells:..6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
Druid Spells:…..6/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4

Yes, the Sorcerer gets Woodland Stride and Trackless step before a Druid, however the rest of the Druid’s abilities outshine the sorcerer’s as they should since the sorcerer gets more spells. I don’t see that getting two core nature avenger abilities at 1st as unbalanced compared to what else a druid gets.

The druids Animal Companions easily equal if not surpasses the sorcerer’s Innate Summon Nature’s Ally spells which have limited duration and limited power in comparison to a Companion.

A nature sorcerer’s Wild Shape is at best Small-Large Animal Cha mod/day compared to the druid’s Tiny-Huge Animal or Plant 6/day, and Small-Huge Elemental 3/day + Thousand Faces. For a sorcerer to get 9 wild shapes per day would require a Charisma of 28 (and that doesn’t even count the druid’s alter self at will).

The sorcerers Outsider ability (gained at 20th) is easily balanced with (if not surpassed by) a druid’s pre-20 abilities: Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Resist Nature’s Lure, Venom Immunity and Timeless Body.

Combined with the hefty restrictions on the nature sorcerer, I honestly think they are pretty well balanced. They get just enough druid-like ability to make them feel “druidy” but nowhere near enough to make then an equal to the druid’s niche.

Thoughts?