D&D 5E Tempest Cleric seems VERY strong

[cmad1977]

My half orc tempest is level 11 and awesome. I don't care if he isn't super optimized for melee. It doesn't matter. He's up there keeping the squishies safe with his plate, shield, and cloak of displacement and blasting the heck out of things.

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By the DPR! YOI CANT CONTTIBUTE TO AN RPG WITHOUT OPTIMIZED DPR!!


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[jgsugden]

In terms of melee damage, clerics (all of them) fall behind efficient paladins, barbarians, fighters, valor bards, rangers, blade warlocks, and monks. Multi-attack is too powerful of an option, especially against reasonable AC enemies when you have Great Weapon Fighting. However, THEY'RE FULL CASTERS WITH AWESOME SPELLS. The only two on that list that shouldn't be better at melee than them are the valor bards and bladelocks as they are also full casters (in their way).

A cleric of levels 1 to 4 can go toe to toe with one of those other classes easily, not losing any edge. In fact, War and Tempest clerics are often stronger at levels 1 to 4 and can be the most OP melee classes early on (Spiritual Weapon really helps for 3rd and 4th levels). You'll feel pretty comfy in combat with these classes in those quick early levels.

At 5th level, though, they start to fall behind the multi-attack abilities of the other classes based upon pure melee damage - but they can augment their melee with spellcasting to still be quite effective. Tempest Clerics thrashing around with great weapon master attacks, spirit guardians, and spiritual weapon... they're not too bad, to say the least.

However, once the party passes level 10 and the paladins begin to smite on pretty much every meaningful attack, the fighters get four or five attacks per round (3 multi, 1 bonus, 1 reaction), etc..., the clerics will find that their melee combat contributions start to pale next to what their powerful spells can do to enemies. The melee contributions will feel more nostalgic than practical when they wade into battle.

For example, a level 11 vengeance paladin with an 18 strength attacks with great weapon master feat using a greatsword. They are under the effects of a haste spell. They get to make 3 or 4 attacks (maybe 5 with a reaction), each of which deal 2d6 + 14 + d8 radiant (and if they smite with a spell slot, + (2d8 + (1d8 additional per spell level used))). Assuming 4 first level slots are used, that could be 8d6 + 56 + 16d8 ... about 150 damage. What is the 11th level cleric doing? 4d6 + 28 + 2d8 + perhaps another 2d8? 60? Spiritual weapon for 10 more? Spirit Guardians for 14 more? 75? They're about half as effective (but still outshine the typical rogue who does 30 or so!).

Note that I'm not calling the Tempest Cleric useless in melee. They're sweeping out weak enemies with Spirit Guardians, they've blasting enemies back with their thunderous strikes... they're just not the damage dealers of other classes and that is the primary yardstick of effective melee combatants.

 

[Zardnaar]

I couldn't disagree more with your assessment.

Its a freeworld. As Grand High Poobah though I out rank you. I also got a +1 from my cat.

 

[DaveDash]

In our Tyranny of Dragons campaign, with my dragonborn tempest cleric, I was probably one of the best at melee. Very high AC, spirit guardians on, and spiritual hammer also going (doesn't require concentration). So I was attacking twice, often at different locations, and damaging anything on the front lines while being able to be quite tanky with high AC. Additionally, with the ability to cause lightning damage as a reaction to anyone who hits me, combined with being able to push an opponent 10ft whenever they suffer lightning damage, I was doing significant damage AND battlefield control at the same time. And if I wanted to nova? Destructive wave, maxing out the thunder damage with yet another of my tempest features.

What were your damage numbers? We had a fighter/rogue (Assassin) sharpshooter doing Alpha strikes of about 60 damage followed up by attacks of 40-50 damage after that.

We had a Bladesong Arcane trickster averaging about 40 damage a round, who also had fantastic AC and advantage on her attacks due to her Mage hand.

Prior to that we had a Berseker Barbarian who also averaged about 50 damage per round.

These are all numbers without those classes having to expend any resources (except Arrows). Sure you can build up and do a bit of damage over time (probably half that) with Spiritual Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and so forth but you're also using time and resources to get there

 

[KahlessNestor]

What were your damage numbers? We had a fighter/rogue (Assassin) sharpshooter doing Alpha strikes of about 60 damage followed up by attacks of 40-50 damage after that.

We had a Bladesong Arcane trickster averaging about 40 damage a round, who also had fantastic AC and advantage on her attacks due to her Mage hand.

Prior to that we had a Berseker Barbarian who also averaged about 50 damage per round.

These are all numbers without those classes having to expend any resources (except Arrows). Sure you can build up and do a bit of damage over time (probably half that) with Spiritual Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and so forth but you're also using time and resources to get there

Ah, but what happens when your fighter/rogue or barbarian goes down? Can they get up by themselves? What if they get poisoned, blinded, cursed? I tagged our half-orc fighter with Death Ward and kept him up three at least three rounds past 0 hps. I'd definitely consider that to be "cleric" damage, because if that fighter isn't up to actually DO that damage, it doesn't matter.

DPR isn't everything.

 

[CapnZapp]

To me it was clear from the beginning any Cleric melee capacity was chiefly a ribbon feature - som players like the imagery, so why not?

But getting weapons and armor doesn't mean you have to do melee.

The Cleric is a spellcaster. Thunder is a great choice. You just don't use a weapon much, if at all. It's when you do the domain might come across as weak, but why then do that?

The domain is not weak. If you want to play a holy weapon user, play a Paladin.

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[DaveDash]

Ah, but what happens when your fighter/rogue or barbarian goes down? Can they get up by themselves? What if they get poisoned, blinded, cursed? I tagged our half-orc fighter with Death Ward and kept him up three at least three rounds past 0 hps. I'd definitely consider that to be "cleric" damage, because if that fighter isn't up to actually DO that damage, it doesn't matter.

DPR isn't everything.

The context of this conversation (specifically the post of mine which you quoted) is the Tempest Cleric out damaging everyone else in the party, and they're "very strong" due to their damage numbers.

I'm not questioning how useful a Cleric is to have in the party, they're incredibly useful to have around, I've played two now (War Cleric and Light Cleric) to level 16 and 18 respectively, so I know.

 

[Yunru]

The [...] War clerics are not actually good at melee after a few levels. If you min/max the hell out of them you can sort of get them to the good range.

Forget good range, if everyone has a maximum of 16 (which is an ask I'll admit), the War Cleric is one of the highest damage dealers.

The problem is that the lack of extra attack means the gap quickly widens the higher above 16 you go.

 

[Cyrinishad]

...Cleric melee capacity was chiefly a ribbon feature...Getting weapons and armor doesn't mean you have to do melee...The Cleric is a spellcaster. Thunder is a great choice...The domain is not weak. If you want to play a holy weapon user, play a Paladin.

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I think CapnZapp crystallized my sense of both the Tempest Domain, and Clerics as a whole with the above quote snips. A Tempest Cleric that focuses on Melee should make sure they remember their Thrown Weapons... There is obvious synergy between the Wrath of the Storm, Destructive Wrath, and Thunderbolt Strike abilities, which means that Tempest Clerics are going to be pushing melee adversaries into perfect Thrown Weapon distance (and with any luck the Thrown Weapon will also have synergy with Thunderbolt Strike to push them back even more)... May as well pile it on with Divine Strike on your Thrown Weapon attack since that ability works with any weapon attack... Finally, the Stormborn ability drives home the idea that the utility of Thrown Weapons will be essential once Melee Weapon attacks take a back-seat to high-level Cleric Spells.

Overall, Tempest Clerics just feel fun and effective at every character level.

 

[Ancalagon]

For example, a level 11 vengeance paladin with an 18 strength attacks with great weapon master feat using a greatsword. They are under the effects of a haste spell. They get to make 3 or 4 attacks (maybe 5 with a reaction), each of which deal 2d6 + 14 + d8 radiant (and if they smite with a spell slot, + (2d8 + (1d8 additional per spell level used))). Assuming 4 first level slots are used, that could be 8d6 + 56 + 16d8 ... about 150 damage. What is the 11th level cleric doing? 4d6 + 28 + 2d8 + perhaps another 2d8? 60? Spiritual weapon for 10 more? Spirit Guardians for 14 more? 75? They're about half as effective (but still outshine the typical rogue who does 30 or so!).
.

I'm not going to dispute that a level 11 paladin is doing more damage than a cleric in melee... buuuut your comparison/numbers are a bit dodgy

1: The haste spell. Can paladin haste themselves? Otherwise this isn't a fair comparison

2: Great weapon mastery does *not* give you a flat out +10 damage. It reduces your chances of hitting, so your effective damage bonus is far less than 10. Furthermore there is the opportunity cost of taking a feat instead of an ASI. Lastly feats are optional - this will not be possible in every game.