D&D 5E Tempest Cleric seems VERY strong

[Sacrosanct]

I just don't share CapnZapp's concerns because I believe that if you are allowing feats and/or being generous with magic items, then you should be boosting the monsters as well - higher AC's, more innate special abilities, or feats of their own. Besides, hitting for big damage is fun.

"Man, I don't know who taught these goblins who to make actual armor, but now these little guys are HARD!"

Or...

It's not hard to make monsters tougher, even while sticking to something that would be totally logical. Like giving them better armor and weapons that makes that -5 penalty a big deal

 

[Shadowdweller00]

One of the major benefits I've found from the Tempest domain is that Thunderbolt Strike and the Thunderwave spell (forced movement) combo quite nicely with a vast number of battlefield control and damage spells, effectively multiplying their value. Such as Blade Barrier, Insect Plague, Guardian of the Faith, Sleet Storm (from the Cleric list alone). Wrath of the Storm (damage on attack) + Thunderbolt strike + Spirit Guardians frequently means that foes will be be unable to get off more than a single melee strike per round against a Tempest Cleric due to movement impairment; at least so long as Wrath of the Storm holds out.

 

[Yunru]

"Man, I don't know who taught these goblins who to make actual armor, but now these little guys are HARD!"

Or...

It's not hard to make monsters tougher, even while sticking to something that would be totally logical. Like giving them better armor and weapons that makes that -5 penalty a big deal

Or just account for the sheer action investment behind getting all those buffs (which the good Cap' refuses to do).

 

[CapnZapp]

Perhaps with considering that there might be truth in what I'm saying even if it is different than your current views. Just CONSIDERING it.

People fret over a lot of math in this game when at the end of the day, 19.34 vs 16.32 DPR often doesn't change anything meaningful. If there are two paths and both result in the PCs reaching the exact same result, it doesn't matter which path they take. If the PCs would have ended up at the end of a combat with the same damage taken and resources used if they'd had the fighter with the GWM in the combat or the fighter that took the +2 strength, then it doesn't really matter which version of the fighter they had in the party.Another valid, and for you - novel, approach.Thank you.

If I were to ask you if you consider your findings to apply to many other things than GWM, including feats, spells, weapons etc; what would your answer be?

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[CapnZapp]

This is mathematically illiterate. You're flat out wrong here, guy.

Another one jumps into the fray, without even the merest mention of Inspiration-like bonus dice.

Sigh.

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[CapnZapp]

Not really sure how the majority of this thread became a GWM war but here is my 2cp. GWM has a greater benefit the less damage you deal per attack and the greater number of attacks one has. This is why Crossbow Master builds benefit from it the most at the expense of an additional feat but it si still very worth it. The -5 hit penalty is a greater risk the more damage you do on a single attack. I have yet to see any sane rogue use Sharp Shooter unless they had a means of at least one additional attack. The more damage you do and the fewer attacks one has, the less value the feat has because the damage is an all or nothing proposition.

Thank you.

While GWM is a strong feat and I do believe it borders on the realm of broken, I would not remove it from the game. It simply provides a very clear method for a player tho enjoys dealing high damage to achieve that part of their fun. For every GWM fighter out there, I can think of a half dozen other builds which can do comparable damage or trade damage for some other measure of sucess. As a control type player I tend to deal far less damage but in exchange ensure those dealing damage are in the optimal situation to use their abilities. This is how I have fun and the presence of GWM/SS makes my contribution even more impactful.

It's your game.

As for your claim GWM isn't the only build, I don't deny your latter half, that you can trade damage for very successful other things, but you did say something about comparable damage builds?

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[CapnZapp]

Well then, let's post some tables.

SCENARIO: Level 11 barbarian with a +2 great axe. With the feat, his strength will be 18. Without, it will be 20, so there is an opportunity cost to taking the feat. This is not a "Made up" example. This is an actual character used in play (Lal Qualandar, in the Al Qadim game that [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] is running).

please stand by as I find a way to post the table.
View attachment 87078

edit: I believe it should be now visible in jpg mode. Please note that the table doesn't take into account critical hits. I readily admit that there is no "turn a near miss into a hit!" feature, but I'll also note that there is no easy way for this character to actually achieve this - he is not a battle master and there is no bard in the party either.

I'll have a look once I get access to a real display and a real keyboard.

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[CapnZapp]

And that's not even considering the other benefits of choosing ASI over feat that may come into play, like saving throw bonuses, encumbrance, skill checks, etc.

Do note this is a discussion about one feat.

Comparing it to other feats.

Anytime you want to argue "you shouldn't take ANY feat, an ASI is better" feel free.

But it's a SEPARATE discussion.

Thx

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[CapnZapp]

To be fair, I think CapnZapp believes that the GWM/Sharpshooter feats are overpowered when used in a party that actively tries to maximize them - i.e. when taking the -5 penalty, the character in question will usually have Advantage, Bless, Haste (for an extra attack), and possibly Bardic inspiration, the Luck feat, or is a Battlemaster.

It gets even worse if you have items like Belts of Giant Strength, Dex/Str tomes, or +3 weapons available.

If you are able to consistently maximize your chance of hitting, the -5 penalty becomes negligible at higher levels vs most of the creatures in the MM.

I just don't share CapnZapp's concerns because I believe that if you are allowing feats and/or being generous with magic items, then you should be boosting the monsters as well - higher AC's, more innate special abilities, or feats of their own. Besides, hitting for big damage is fun.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

Except beefing up monsters create an arms race, and you know who are the losers?

The ones *not* taking GWM!

In other words, no, the solution in feat games isn't to beef up monsters. The solution is to remove GWM

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[CapnZapp]

"Man, I don't know who taught these goblins who to make actual armor, but now these little guys are HARD!"

Or...

It's not hard to make monsters tougher, even while sticking to something that would be totally logical. Like giving them better armor and weapons that makes that -5 penalty a big deal

You could at least give me that any feat that makes all your kobolds and bugbears and bandits wear full plate is wonky.

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