The Problem with Goblinoids

[demiurge1138]

I'm playing in Eberron, and I like what Keith Baker did with the goblinoids. They're still not fey, but they're an organized threat with lots of factions and lots of history. I made goblins devious and opportunistic, hobgoblins crafty and dangerous, and actually made them more worried about the melee potential of bugbears than they really should have been (through a combination of reputation and having their first big fight be against a classed bugbear). It worked well; they got an appreciation of goblinoid culture, and I developed even more of a fondness for those little buggers. And personally, I've never been a fan of orcs, so I find that goblinoids are more commonly the "default evil humanoids" in my game.

Demiurge out.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Ever tried to "charm" a goblin into helping the party?

Has any of your characters even bothered to tie up and interogate a goblin?

Actually yes, in both cases. Multiple times, in many different campaigns. In fact, I think more goblin-oriented battles have ended with interrogations than have ended with complete obliteration.

 

[Len]

Why should the DM create a background for a character who is just going to be #3 on the Cleave cycle?

Start giving the goblins class levels. Pretty soon the players will realize that "the cleave stops here."

 

[Desdichado]

Eh, I'm not a fan of fairytale/Labyrinth interpretations of goblins. Tolkien did the old boys a favor by elevating them beyond fairytales and into a seriously menacing society.

I do believe you have a bit of a point, though, in terms of under-utilization of the potential coolness of goblinoids and niche confusion with orcs. I'm also not particularly a fan of bigbears, nor do I believe that their relationship to goblins and hobgoblins is obvious.

But because the potential is largely untapped doesn't mean it completely is. Check out the Kalamar campaign setting for cool hobgoblin usage, or Eberron for cool goblin/hobgoblins as well.

 

[devoblue]

I think gobliniods are way cool and always look for ways to get them in into the campaign.

Goblins get a bit screwed by having +4 to ride, but even with that they can make very cool characters. They are in no way underpowered when compared to halflings and gnomes.

Hobgoblins get screwed by being LA +1, so I fix this by removing the con bonus and dropping them back to LA +0.

Bugbears are ok, but I would prefer they had warrior levels instead of hit-dice.


edit: spleling

 

[Silveras]

Your problem is one of misperception, I think.

In a "light" game, based on one-off modules among friends who do not put much emphasis on the campaign world, the plethora of monsters graded by CR and HD makes perfect sense. If most games are "pickup" games, this arrangement is just what you need to quickly throw together an interesting-but-balanced encounter.

On the other hand, in a game where the campaign world has more meaning, and there is an emphasis on setting a flavor and tone, then the key is selectivity. The various monster books give you the tools, but just as a painter does not try to use every shade of every color in a single portrait, so must the DM shape flavor as much by that IS NOT in his/her world as by what IS.

There are no halflings in my world; they do not fit the mood/tone I am building. The Goblins are called the Gar-Ishtrakyn, and inhabit a range of haunted hills along the northern border of the main human kingdom. The Orcs are called the Tarrakyn, and they inhabit two mountain ranges... one along the eastern edges of the main human kingdom, and other far north and west (where the Tarrakyn have slowly taken Dwarfhold after Dwarfhold over the centuries). Gnolls, called Canakyn, are from a jungle-continent away to the south. They only appear in this area when brought as mercenary guards by traders from the south.

The number of different sentient races in the MM alone is enough to make it highly unlikely more than a few of them come from the same area. The keys are geographic dispersal and selective use.

That being said, WotC is not entirely behind the curve on this. The 2nd Edition Birthright setting presented Goblins as one of the major races, without Orcs about (there were Orogs, but they had a different origin from the half-Orc/half-Ogre version). The Goblins had a kingdom that was on a par with the human nations in many ways. That was one of the best presentations of Goblins I have seen to date.

Also, check old Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I dimly recall an old (pre #100) Dragon magazine with some nice details on Goblin culture in a campaign world. Also, there was an adventure in Dungeon, back in the 2nd Edition days, that presented Goblins with PC classes and levels (well before the Complete Humanoids Handbook).

 

[Banshee16]

I recently finished reading The War of the Flowers, by Tad Williams, in which goblins featured prominently. In the book, they're definitely a fairy race, and nothing to sneeze at. Before reading this thread, I was actually thinking of using the Faeries book from Bastion Press, and re-writing goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears as faeries....either by rebuilding them from the ground up with the Fey type, or by applying the Fey-born template....followed by the Shadowborn template. I figure they're members of the Unseelie Court..

Banshee

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I've always like goblins much better than orcs for my games. Though I remember being quite put out that Hob Goblins were evil in D&D, a proper hob is also called a browny... And I have the goblins as fae in my games as well.

The joy of adventurers going into tunnels less than four feet tall, dug into the sides of old burial mounds... The cries from the Goblin Market, 'Who will buy our orchard fruit? Come buy, come buy!' The superstitious fear the peasants have of the wee folk in the wood, and padfoot near the kirk. Froud is one of my favorite artists, all because of his goblins.

The Auld Grump

 

[Klaus]

Here's what I do to make the goblinoids more interesting:

http://www.enworld.org/Pozas/Pictures/Wallpapers/pax_wp.jpg

Orcs are evil gorilla berserkers who worship bloodthristy gods.

Hobgoblins are evil roman legionnaires who want to rule everyone.

Goblins are child-sized, and have as much morality as a child (which is far too little).

Bugbears are intelligent bears who hunt intelligent species much like a great cat hunts prey.

 

[fusangite]

It sounds to me like you're redoing some goblinoids as evil fey. I think that's a smart move. You might want to look at the Japanese Tengu as inspiration while you're at it.