The Problem with Goblinoids

[ptolemy18]

Then again, I don't like goblins are 'fey' type creatures, nor do I like gnomes that way so it seems that we're coming at it from different ends.

Background and behavior aside -- though I'll complain about that too -- I think D&D goblins and hobgoblins just don't LOOK different enough from orcs. (Aside from goblins being Small, of course.)

They're all kind of ugly humanoids with flattened noses and big teeth. They're just too similar-looking. (Unless of course goblins and hobgoblins are related to orcs... but this obviously ain't the case in existing D&D mythology, despite the fact that they look almost the same, aside from orcs being hairier and more muscular.)

I'm now considering the possibilities of having "half-goblins" and "half-hobgoblins" in my campaign...

Jason

 

[ptolemy18]

Y'know, aside from Brian Froud's goblins... it just occurred to me that I also like WARHAMMER Goblins, even though they've got the same problems as D&D goblins in terms of having an undistinguished background/history/racial identity.

The reason why? Because of those KICK-ASS BRITISH FANTASY ARTISTS! They know how to make cool-looking, deformed, dirty goblins wearing scraps of armor and junk...

Jason

 

[JoeGKushner]

Background and behavior aside -- though I'll complain about that too -- I think D&D goblins and hobgoblins just don't LOOK different enough from orcs. (Aside from goblins being Small, of course.)

They're all kind of ugly humanoids with flattened noses and big teeth. They're just too similar-looking. (Unless of course goblins and hobgoblins are related to orcs... but this obviously ain't the case in existing D&D mythology, despite the fact that they look almost the same, aside from orcs being hairier and more muscular.)

I'm now considering the possibilities of having "half-goblins" and "half-hobgoblins" in my campaign...

Jason

Kingdoms of Kalamar covers the half-hoboglinbs quite well.

The old Atlantis book by the guy who writes Talislanta had Nethermen, ancients who were dying off due to their sterile nature. Good stuff there.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I tend to use orcs and humans as closely related species, if not widely divergent branches of the same species. They can (and often do) interbreed, overlap geographically and culturally, and often share nations. Both are naturally feudal and familial, but orcs require more meat to survive and so tend to be more nomadic than settled. Elves are closely related, but usually deny their natures, living in artificial social structures held apart from human and orcish culture. My orcs are much less beastial looking than 3e's, though.

Goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears are another unique species. Although each race can 'breed true,' they traditionally interbreed and purestrain members of one are rare. Many purestrain hobgoblins consider themselves ubermensch (or ubergobsch, as the case may be) and lord it over the other groups. All goblinoids are naturally communal rather than familial, living in social arrangements more akin to herds than families.

 

[Samothdm]

I'm now considering the possibilities of having "half-goblins" and "half-hobgoblins" in my campaign...

Part of me changing the goblins to Size Medium enabled me to make half-goblins (half-human). All of the "half-races" are referred to as "half-breeds" (not a nice term).

I don't have hobgoblins, and my orcs are sufficiently different from my goblins so that there is no confusion. They each fill a very different role. Neither are the standard "cannon fodder bad guys". It makes it interesting because most of the people assumed that if they saw an orc or goblin, they would attack it on site. Then they started playing and realized that this isn't the case.

Of course, you still need hordes of cannon-fodder, right? (Well, maybe not "hordes"). I use gnolls and kobolds to fill that role. I make both somewhat different, culture-wise, from standard D&D, and I pump my kobolds up with class levels to surprise my players. The old-schoolers were sufficiently taken aback the first time they fought little kobold enclave which included a 4th level rogue and a 3rd level sorcerer.

I use bugbears sparingly, but so far most of the group see them as really more like primitive, unevolved orcs, which is fine by me. I think it makes it more interesting that way - to just use the monster's stats but not necessarily the culture or even the physical description as per the MM.

 

[Desdichado]

Of course, you still need hordes of cannon-fodder, right? (Well, maybe not "hordes"). I use gnolls and kobolds to fill that role.

If you truly do need hordes of cannon fodder, what's the driving reason to make them another race? Why not 1st or 2nd level human warriors or rogues as brigands, street toughs and the like? That's what I use.

 

[TroyXavier]

Hobgoblins are Roman legionaire types. Very different in personality from Orcs who tend to be brutish thugs and savage warriors. Hobgoblins are veryinterested in arcane magic(Several Eldritch Knights and Spellswords) Orcs tend towards divine magic, though there are a few Rage Mages too.

 

[Testament]

Y'know, aside from Brian Froud's goblins... it just occurred to me that I also like WARHAMMER Goblins, even though they've got the same problems as D&D goblins in terms of having an undistinguished background/history/racial identity.

The reason why? Because of those KICK-ASS BRITISH FANTASY ARTISTS! They know how to make cool-looking, deformed, dirty goblins wearing scraps of armor and junk...

And what about Squigs huh? Don't they help make Goblins cool? And Night Goblin fanatics!

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

Termites!

My goblyn are really quite different - they're like termites or more precisely like siafu (driver ants) inspired by my run ins with those little bar-stewards in an African rain forest.

Basically the goblyn are insectile (template from Savage Species) goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears. The goblin type are workers and drones, the hobgoblins are warriors, and the bugbears are warlords and shock troops. They are subterranean and genderless, and spend most of their time fighting with other hives of goblyn. There is then a single insectile human advanced to large size that is the queen who runs the hive, a small number of male insectile humans that are her mates and several female insectile humans that are the queens daughters. The daughters act like colonels/directors in that they are really running the show based on the queen's direction, and one of them will eventually take over the role of queen and run the hive (when she'll kill her sisters and quickly produce a squad of daughters to help her run the place). The queen is sedantary and spends most of her time laying eggs, but can be vicious if forced into it (so similar to an Alien queen). The goblyn are very opportunistic - whilst they do have some basic mushroom agriculture they are mainly subterranean hunters and have only very primitive technology (mainly because the daughters are the only ones that can really 'learn' and all but one of them gets wiped out every generation). As an example they have learned how to work metal, but not how to smelt it from ore - so they are dependent on stealing metal from humans and dwarves to actually increase their supplies.

I also have orcs that are a tribal group that live on an archipelago and raid the human and elven coastal villages - viking like in temperament/activity but pacific islander like in look and feel. They are unrelated to the goblyn and have never come in contact with them.

And finally I have a nation called Geomar which is effectively just another country, but is mainly hobgoblins. They are very spartan but primarily because they were forced to become that way when their human neighbours (the Numbari) invaded and tried to exterminate them. In temperament and action they are no different from a militarily inclined human nation, so visiting Geomar is just like visiting the next kingdom except that it's run by six foot green people with pronounced canines.

The island orcs and the Geomari have some solidarity as they both feel persecuted by human nations, but they are not formally allied and have had some minor skirmishes.

 

[S'mon]

My hobgoblins are crafty, very human-like - in fact they're probably the result of human-goblin interbreeding, they're "half-goblins". They're often professional slavers or mercenaries and can often operate within human society. Goblins by contrast live in tunnels and are nasty and sneaky, but there are semi-civilised goblins called Trollkin (like the Runequest trollkin). Orcs are divided into sub-races (Snagga, Orok etc) but the standard MM orc is a big brutal warrior, more aggressive and a lot stupider than hobgoblins. Bugbears are big hairy goblinoids who again often serve as mercenaries or bounty-hunters.