UA Monks Introduces the Kensai and Tranquility Traditions

The Kensei was pretty much exactly how I expected/wanted it to be. With the exception of the bludgeoning damage. A d4 that doesn't scale? I hate d4s, and especially at higher levels it's hardly worth anything. Especially since as a monk, I could just use my bonus action to make an unarmed attack and use monk damage dice for that.

I've never been a fan of pacifist PCs, so the tranquil monk isn't my cup of tea. I understand others may feel differently though.

 

[pemerton]

You dont have a problem with your martial arts being switched off the instant your Wuxia weapon master picks up a Jian, or your Kensai picks up his Katana?

I didn't say anything about what I do or don't have a problem with (other than that the game's apparent obsession with hand-use and loading seems out of place). I'm just saying that I don't think [MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] disagrees with you or has failed to notice the things you are pointing out. I think Thurmas doesn't mind these things.

 

[pemerton]

A 20th level Jian/ Katana using Kensai with Dex 20 who dumped Str to 8 deals 0 damage unarmed on any round he attacks with his sword.

[Attack] Sword/ Kick + [flurry] Kick/ Kick deals - [1d10, Dex to hit and damage]+ 0 + 0 + 0

It also costs him 1 point of Ki to do it.

Presumably one wouldn't spend the Ki point in such circumstances.

It seems likely that the authors of the kensei did not intend this particular interaction - I think it's likely (given the pummel feature) that all they wanted to do was exclude the 3rd dot point of Martial Arts.

But even going with the literal wording, couldn't your example be solved by the monk going Sword-sheath-kick-kick-kick; and then, in the following round, drawing the sword again (and using pummel rather than flurry)? This doesn't deal with the AC issue, but I think I've seen this sort of thing in martial arts films.

 

[Flamestrike]

I didn't say anything about what I do or don't have a problem with (other than that the game's apparent obsession with hand-use and loading seems out of place). I'm just saying that I don't think @Thurmas disagrees with you or has failed to notice the things you are pointing out. I think Thurmas doesn't mind these things.

He was under the impression that the Kensai treats martial weapons as monk weapons [other than the bonus action attack].

Thats not true. The Kensai treats martial weapons as Kensai weapons. Kensai weapons share a lot of similarities with Monk weapons (Dex to hit and different damage die), but they shut down the martial arts class feature entirely.

Its an important difference. Assume a Dex 16, Str 8 3rd level Monk:

A Naginata [spear] using OHM Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d8+3] and [1d4+3] with martial arts. If he flurries he instead deals 2 x [1d4+3] damage attacks in addition to his [1d8+3] naginata attack. All attacks use Dex.

Both flurry attacks knock his target prone, push it back or deny it of reactions.

A Naginata [halberd] using Kensai Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d10+3] and cant use martial arts at all. Instead he can add 1d4 bludgeoning damage as a bonus action. If he doesnt add the +d4 bludgeoning damamge, and instead flurries as his bonus action, he deals 2 x [0] damage attacks that both use Str to hit in addition to his [1d10+3] dex based naginata attack.

The spear using OHM is in all ways, better than the Kensai.

 

[Flamestrike]

Presumably one wouldn't spend the Ki point in such circumstances.

It seems likely that the authors of the kensei did not intend this particular interaction - I think it's likely (given the pummel feature) that all they wanted to do was exclude the 3rd dot point of Martial Arts.

I agree. I desperately wanted a weapon master monk [I so want to play a Wuxia Jian using monk], but this sucker is worded poorly at best.

But even going with the literal wording, couldn't your example be solved by the monk going Sword-sheath-kick-kick-kick; and then, in the following round, drawing the sword again (and using pummel rather than flurry)? This doesn't deal with the AC issue, but I think I've seen this sort of thing in martial arts films.

If many of a weapon master monks class features only work when he sheathes his weapon (which in itself strips him of his entire archetypes special abilities and core schtick), we have a problem on many levels.

 

[kalil]

That Kensai is pretty darn terribad isn't it? I mean, I like the concept and all, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired IMHO.

 

[pemerton]

I desperately wanted a weapon master monk [I so want to play a Wuxia Jian using monk], but this sucker is worded poorly at best.

This isn't the first time these sorts of problems have occurred. The 4e monk has counter-intuitively precise wording in order to make weapons relevant sometimes (eg OAs) but not other times (using core attack powers, which have set damage dice a bit like the 5e martial arts die); and then gives the monk an "unarmed strike" feature to give it a longsword-equivalent "weapon" to use if otherwise unarmed. Clunky.

The brawler fighter in Martial Power 2 received errata not too long after publication to try and make sense of its class features that had the purpose of trying to keep its non-weapon attacks (grapples, shoves, etc) on par with weapon attacks.

I think this is a result of the particular style of granularity with which D&D sets up mechanical expectations for attacks, weapons, damage dice etc.

 

[Thurmas]

[MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], I don't think Thurmas disagrees with you:

Thurmas recognises that, in wielding a non-monk kensei weapon, you lose the ability to make a bonus unarmed attack. And Thurmas recognises that wielding a non-monk kensei weapon downgrades FoB.

It just seems that, unlike you, Thurmas doesn't mind about these things, and is happy to have the other benefits of the Martial Arts feature (use DEX rather than STR, sub the Martial Arts die for the damage die listed on the equipment table) in respect of kensei weapons.

Thank you for recognizing that I recognized that. That's exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[Thurmas]

He was under the impression that the Kensai treats martial weapons as monk weapons [other than the bonus action attack].

Thats not true. The Kensai treats martial weapons as Kensai weapons. Kensai weapons share a lot of similarities with Monk weapons (Dex to hit and different damage die), but they shut down the martial arts class feature entirely.

Its an important difference. Assume a Dex 16, Str 8 3rd level Monk:

A Naginata [spear] using OHM Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d8+3] and [1d4+3] with martial arts. If he flurries he instead deals 2 x [1d4+3] damage attacks in addition to his [1d8+3] naginata attack. All attacks use Dex.

Both flurry attacks knock his target prone, push it back or deny it of reactions.

A Naginata [halberd] using Kensai Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d10+3] and cant use martial arts at all. Instead he can add 1d4 bludgeoning damage as a bonus action. If he doesnt add the +d4 bludgeoning damamge, and instead flurries as his bonus action, he deals 2 x [0] damage attacks that both use Str to hit in addition to his [1d10+3] dex based naginata attack.

The spear using OHM is in all ways, better than the Kensai.

That's not what I was saying or the impression I had at all. I realized all of that, and I believe said so multiple times. The difference is you were focusing on the unarmed strikes, or lack there of, and I was focusing on the shiny new weapons the Monk can use effectively.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think the level 17 tranquility Monk is that good without some sort of summoner either. I don't think you will see your friends go down that much.

 

[Flamestrike]

Here is how I'm gonna run it:

Path of the Kensei (3rd level):

When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality (other than the lance) to be your Kensai weapon. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you.

In addition, when you attack with your Kensai weapon, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Finally, choose one of the following options:

1) Weapon master: Select one of the Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles. You learn this fighting style. In addition you can expend 1 point of ki to gain advantage on any checks or saves to avoid being disarmed of your weapon, or that targets your weapon.
2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to your AC. When you use your flurry of blows attack, you can expend an additional point of ki and resolve one of the attacks with a monk weapon instead of an unarmed strike.
3) Zen archery: You must have selected a bow to use this option. You gain the Archery fighting style. In addition as a bonus action on your turn you can expend 2 points of Ki to take careful aim at a creature you can see that is within range of a ranged weapon you are weilding. Until the end of this turn, your succesful ranged attacks against this target ignore 3/4 and 1/2 cover and deals additional damage equal to 2 + half your Monk level.

One with your Weapon (6th level):

Magic weapons: Your attacks with monk weapons are treated as magical.

Stare down: As an action on your turn you can expend 1 point of Ki and attempt to stare down or otherwise seek to intimidate your target (pulling your attack at the last second, landing a close shot with a bow, staring your target down, a flourish of your blade etc). Choose a single target that can see you within 60'. That target must pass a [DC 8 + Wis + Prof] Wisdom save or be frightened of you. The target can re-roll the save at the end of each turn to end the condition, becoming immune to this ability for 24 hours on a save.

Un-erring Accuracy (11th level)

You may spend 1 Ki point before making an attack with a monk weapon to make the attack with advantage to the attack roll.

Deadly Strike (17th level)

When you use your Unnerring accuracy ability, and both attack rolls would hit your target, the attack is a critical hit.