[XPH]: Your take on Energy Missile augmentation

[Thanee]

I suppose its inclusion as a kineticist power is a typo as well then.

Or its inclusion as a 2nd level power.

Even with the obviously right +1/2 DC scaling, it's not in line as a 2nd level power.

Medium range, up to 5 targets (usually 2, more will be rare, I guess), seperate targeting (no area) - that's too much for 2nd level.

I think it would be fine with only one target and close range and, of course, the +1/2 DC scaling errata!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

You have forgotten about mass damage rules and the possibility of death it entails

You mean the 'if you take 50 or more damage from a single attack you need to make a fort save dc15 or die'? who cares? At these levels the fighter types will be forceing that save everytime they swing!

Compare Energy Missile with Energy Cone, also a Kineticist power a level higher.

Ok, energy cone does not target, and has a much, much larger area of effect.

For the level 10 psion example from my first post, both can deal 10d6 damage to several targets (forget overchanneling/talented or metapsionic feats). But while the Save DC for the cone would be DC 10+3(level)+5(Int)+2(augmentation)=20, the energy missile managed a 24 save DC.
Yes, the Energy Cone has a better area, but being a spread means that cover can modify the save DC. Also, cone doesn't let you pick targets in front of you while saving your grunt bodyguards from any damage.

Ok, cool. So you lose out on a huge amount of area, and have to target. As for your bodyguards, simply plan ahead and pick the element that they are resistant/immune to. Easy. In fact it is even better, because now they can charge into combat and have all of the people they are fighting hit at once.

At level 20 the difference is way more notable: DC 39 for the energy missile and DC 10+3(level)+10(int)+7(augmentation)=30. 9 points more of save DC for the same manifester, with a power that is one level lower?

They are the same level, when you boost them up that high. You are spending the same amount of points on them.

In effect you are trading the area of effect, and the chance to hit many more targets, and the ability to hit things without having to actually target them (this is a big one, there are always ways to get around being targetted.. not the least of which is spell turning.. talk about an ouch) all just for the extra points of dc.

Good trade, tough call. Each is very situationally dependent. Sometimes one is better, and sometimes the other is better. Pretty good balance there!

It is a 2nd level power, for god's sake!

Generally this is immaterial, the only time it matters is if the target is immune to spells of level X. Otherwise, if you are paying the cost for a higher power then it is the same as the higher power. That is how psionics work.

I also think that sometimes it is better to pick your 5 targets than to just go ahead and release a cone which could get your allies into trouble if unprotected. It allows for less planning ahead. Also, its capabilities when dealing with ambush situations are just plain evil. I have noticed that most PCs when travelling through the dungeons remain packed together, except for the couple of scout/trapfinders that are a bit ahead, and that spellcasters tend to pack on the middle/back of the group. With a boosted up energy missile power you can take out the spellcasting capabilities of the party of one blow.

5 targets? Taking out the parties spellcasting with one blow?

These are worthless targets you are talking about. If at these levels the pc's cannot deal with this minor power (because a meteor swarm point blank would do effectively the exact same thing) then they have other things to worry about.

Ambushes are always incredibly deadly in d&d, this power existing or not changes nothing about that. It is not anymore deadly than other combinations that are possible.


There is nothing here that you have said that says it is overpowered. The example with the cone vs the missile shows this very well. It is a big tradeoff. If you think that being able to do one or the other is 'better' in some way that is fine, it is campaign dependant. But trying to take into account more situations it just seems like a viable choice. One or the other. Sometimes one is better, sometimes the other. That certainly seems like a good definition of balanced to me.

 

[Kyamsil]

Compare Energy Missile to Energy Ray and Energy Stun then:

Energy Ray, 1st level... touch attack, no save (same as infinite DC), single target.

Energy Missile, 2nd level... no attack needed, save with high DC, up to 5 targets.

Energy Stun, 2nd level... 5' radius burst (smaller area, definitely less than 5 targets if not crowded of Tiny and smaller creatures), save with standard DC, 2 fewer d6. possibility of stun for 1 round with another save but only if failed the first one.

So we have two powers of the same level (even if one is kineticist only). Against medium creatures, Energy Stun at the basic can deal 1d6 damage with save for half against 4 targets at most (extremely unlikely) and stun them if they fail a second save after failing the first one, while Energy Missile is capable of dealing each of them 3d6 damage.

The difference is even greater the more you boost the save DC of Energy Missile when comparing them to Energy Ray and Energy Stun.

 

[Scion]

Medium range, up to 5 targets (usually 2, more will be rare, I guess), seperate targeting (no area) - that's too much for 2nd level.

The no area is as much of a benefit as it is a drawback (in fact, in my experience for the campaign I am currently in it needing to target would make it an almost never used power! we have been almost entirely in woodlands and grasslands, hiding behind trees, being a few feet away in grass, night time raids, etc etc).

5 targets is incredibly unlikely. It might happen now and then, but at higher levels it will effectively never happen against enemies that matter (trying to keep from being all caught in a fireball type of effect is a good enough example of this). They all have to be within 15' of one another after all. (but you did mention this, just thought I would state it again ).

Medium range is nice, but in underground settings it doesnt come into play. Outdoors it also rarely comes into play, and because it must target it is easy to be behind something making it impossible to be targetted (remember the trees I mentioned?)


Some have tried to compare it with magic missile, which doesnt make much sense to me, but here it goes I guess.

They both have the same targetting scheme.
MM is force vs energy of energy missile (point for mm)
both have the same range.
MM has no save vs energy missile has a save (point for mm)
MM has up to 5d4+5 points of damage for a first level spell vs energy missile 3d6 + modifier for a second level power. This is impossible to compare usefully. We dont know what damage MM would do if it was 2nd level, maybe it would have double its count of missiles, maybe each would do double the amount of damage, maybe it would do 5d4+5 to each target. who knows?

So, even in this comparison, energy missile comes out looking all right. Agaist a lower level spell it comes out ahead in damage (maybe) but it falls behind in other areas.

If MM is the top of the pecking order for first level spells, and energy missile is the top of the pecking order for 2nd level powers that are discipline specific (which generally deserves a slight boost in my mind), and energy missile doesnt win all over in this case.. well..

Certainly seems like energy missile is fine that that level. So now I have compared it at just about every level in one form or another. Everytime it comes out looking all right, sometimes being better, sometimes worse.

Where is the imbalance?

 

[Scion]

Compare Energy Missile to Energy Ray and Energy Stun then:

The difference is even greater the more you boost the save DC of Energy Missile when comparing them to Energy Ray and Energy Stun.

I am uncertain what you are trying to prove here. Can you go over this again?

Energy missile is a touch attack and it hits the target with no save. ok. What would you like to compare?

Energy stun has the same damage and save progression as energy missile.

So, the save issue is moot. One doesnt even allow a save, and the other has the same save.

What is it you are trying to prove? I am afraid that I could not catch your point.

 

[Thanee]

Well, I don't think there is any decent (compareable) area spell/power of 2nd level, or is there?

I think the selectable targets are a great benefit (if you need an area attack, you can still use Energy Ball or whatnot), especially once combat has started.

The best spell to compare is surely Scorching Ray, one of the most powerful 2nd level spells out there.

Save versus touch attack comes out almost equal (with a slight advantage for the touch attack, as it is easier to make, but is also basically a "negate save", not just half).

Forgetting about the variable energy applications for now, which all the energy line powers have, what is left is basically 1d6+1 damage per level versus 4d6 per 4 levels (roughly), which is about equal.

Of course augmentation costs PP, but that is the price for the added flexiblity in the psionics system as well as the missing caps, increased DC, etc, and cannot be considered as a disadvantage here, really, as that would be discounting the numerous advantages inherent to the augmentation system. We have to compare an augmented Energy Missile with a scaled Scorching Ray as that is what it comes down to.

Up to this point, both are roughly equal IMHO.

Now Energy Missile also has a much higher range and the ability to affect multiple targets at full power (at least 2 will be often possible, 3 is still probable, anything more is not very likely).

That's just too much.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kyamsil]

Energy Missile, 2nd level... no attack needed, save with high DC, up to 5 targets.

Energy Stun, 2nd level... 5' radius burst (smaller area, definitely less than 5 targets if not crowded of Tiny and smaller creatures), save with standard DC, 2 fewer d6. possibility of stun for 1 round with another save but only if failed the first one.

So we have two powers of the same level (even if one is kineticist only). Against medium creatures, Energy Stun at the basic can deal 1d6 damage with save for half against 4 targets at most (extremely unlikely) and stun them if they fail a second save after failing the first one, while Energy Missile is capable of dealing each of them 3d6 damage.

I meant that comparing Energy Stun and Energy Missile, the higher you pump the damage, the higher the difference is (sorry, lack of sleep getting to me ) They both are the same level, and Energy Stun will be always be 2d6 less than Energy Missile when using the same amount of power points. Also, Stun will always have at least one target less against crowded opponents (of medium size, that is).

About your point regarding trees and undergrowth... according to the DMG, trees give partial cover (no blocking of LoS), and only medium and dense forests have massive trees (the ones that occupy a whole square and you can hide behind). Undergrowth and tall grass can provide concealment of 20% (or 30% for heavy undergrowth), something that hardly protects you from "magic missile"-like targetting. A ray is affected by miss-chance, targetting without attack rolls isn't.

Even the denser woods would have a 20% of squares occupied by massive trees. But in that sort of terrain the cone extra area that you defend is actually not so higher, because being a spread means that every square with a massive tree will block it.

 

[Scion]

The best spell to compare is surely Scorching Ray, one of the most powerful 2nd level spells out there.

Scorching ray does three sets of 4d6

Energy missile does somewhere from one to five sets of 3d6+mod

Overall I think the comparisons are all right. Remember, Scorching ray can do more to any single target by far, while energy missile might do more total to different targets. That is a 'significant' advantage. 12d6 to one target is generally worth much more than 3d6+mod to a few targets.

And then, you say that energy missile gets better distance. If that is all that is left then I'll have to say you left out one more detail: Energy missile is a discipline only power. Which means you have to be of a certain type of psion or spend a feat. Scorching ray is effectively on the 'general' list. Which means that energy missile gets, in this comparison, a slight boost to range because it is much more selective in who can choose it. You have to give up something to get it.

Sounds pretty even over all

 

[Scion]

I meant that comparing Energy Stun and Energy Missile, the higher you pump the damage, the higher the difference is (sorry, lack of sleep getting to me ) They both are the same level, and Energy Stun will be always be 2d6 less than Energy Missile when using the same amount of power points.

Energy stun does a bit less damage, but has a chance of 'stunning'. That is a huge advantage or energy stun!!

About your point regarding trees and undergrowth... according to the DMG, trees give partial cover (no blocking of LoS), and only medium and dense forests have massive trees (the ones that occupy a whole square and you can hide behind). Undergrowth and tall grass can provide concealment of 20% (or 30% for heavy undergrowth), something that hardly protects you from "magic missile"-like targetting. A ray is affected by miss-chance, targetting without attack rolls isn't.

Dont know about you, but when I am in a fairly new woodland area you cant see people who hide down behind a lush bush. Or behind a fir tree

I dont know what the dmg says about it, but I do know that if you are 50+ feet away, moving carefully and hiding then you are effectively invisible to people looking for you. Plus, you dont need a tree that fills up your whole square anyway.. Where are the rules for this anyway? are they in the srd somewhere? 30% sounds like a very strange number no matter what.

Still, with a pretty hefty bonus to hide from the cover, plus being a good distance away, it just hasnt been useful. along with being able to hide behind trees, in growths, and in ditches. The woodlands are like that


In any event, in instances like this it is generally better to have the area of effect. When in dungeon type areas the extra distance matters effectively not at all, and area of effects can be used to blast around corners or through obsticles to hit those behind them. Like I said, both have their uses.

 

[Thanee]

Remember, Scorching ray can do more to any single target by far, while energy missile might do more total to different targets. That is a 'significant' advantage. 12d6 to one target is generally worth much more than 3d6+mod to a few targets.

If you can do 12d6 with Scorching Ray, you can do 11d6+11 to 1-5 targets with Energy Missile at least!

Where is Scorching Ray doing significantly more damage here!? I see up to 5 times (2-3 times being reasonable) the damage in favor to Energy Missile, actually.

Energy missile is a discipline only power.

True, it's just a minor point, tho, which is somewhat linked with the overall way psionics work, which is (fortunately) a bit different to magic now.

Bye
Thanee