possibly looking for a new system - need recommendations!

GlassJaw

Hero
Kamikaze Midget said:
Ick. I've got a bit of a grudge against any system that has a failure mechanic for magical super-niftiness. I'm cool with a cost (in fact I think there should be a cost), but a failure chance is just a recipie for swingy combats most of the time.

Most low-magic settings/rulesets have a magic failure mechanic. And they should. If magic isn't an integral part of the setting or is dangerous, why shouldn't it have a failure mechanic? What if there are no combat-specific spells/magic?

You can't use your presumptions about D&D magic to judge other systems, especially pulp or low-magic ones.
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Most low-magic settings/rulesets have a magic failure mechanic. And they should. If magic isn't an integral part of the setting or is dangerous, why shouldn't it have a failure mechanic? What if there are no combat-specific spells/magic?

A failure chance isn't necessary to achieve a low-magic setting or ruleset. There are many ways to make magic rare and special without having a chance of failure.

It shouldn't have a failure mechanic because this generally leads to two outcomes (depending on if you have combat or not)

#1: IN COMBAT: If you fail to use your ability, you've wasted your turn. If you succeed in using your ability, its often quite powerful in comparison to what everyone else does. This is swingy combat: either you're useless, or you're uber. This is has been a problem with "Save or Die" mechanics, a problem with Spell Resistance, and a problem with immunities.

#2: OUT OF COMBAT: "I roll my magic check...I do it again...I wait to recharge...I roll it again..." This leads to repetitive "rolling until you succeed."

Both problems can be solved locally (which is especially true in the latter case), but you could opt to not have those problems in the first place, while still keeping the overall level of magic very low indeed, by dispensing with a universal failure mechanic.

As a player, I like to use my turns to accomplish something (even if it's significantly less than I hoped to). Not to try to accomplish something.

You can't use your presumptions about D&D magic to judge other systems, especially pulp or low-magic ones.

You're right. That's why I'm using my preference (and, I'd wager, this preference matches a general preference in the world at large) for non-binary gameplay to judge all systems, D&D included.

The genre and level of magic doesn't even enter into it. This is purely a gamist consideration: It's not fun to use an ability (presumably purchased with scarce character resources) that you might never, depending on the vagaries of chance, actually be able to use.

There's more than one way to skin the low-magic cat, and a failure chance is, in my view, a rather messy and ineffective way to skin it. The cat's still twitching, the hide's getting damaged, it's not a fun experience.

....that metaphor is a really poor one, but I hope you get the general gist of what I mean. :D
 


Rel

Liquid Awesome
Kamikaze Midget said:
A failure chance isn't necessary to achieve a low-magic setting or ruleset. There are many ways to make magic rare and special without having a chance of failure.

It shouldn't have a failure mechanic because this generally leads to two outcomes (depending on if you have combat or not)

#1: IN COMBAT: If you fail to use your ability, you've wasted your turn. If you succeed in using your ability, its often quite powerful in comparison to what everyone else does. This is swingy combat: either you're useless, or you're uber. This is has been a problem with "Save or Die" mechanics, a problem with Spell Resistance, and a problem with immunities.

#2: OUT OF COMBAT: "I roll my magic check...I do it again...I wait to recharge...I roll it again..." This leads to repetitive "rolling until you succeed."

Both problems can be solved locally (which is especially true in the latter case), but you could opt to not have those problems in the first place, while still keeping the overall level of magic very low indeed, by dispensing with a universal failure mechanic.

As a player, I like to use my turns to accomplish something (even if it's significantly less than I hoped to). Not to try to accomplish something.



You're right. That's why I'm using my preference (and, I'd wager, this preference matches a general preference in the world at large) for non-binary gameplay to judge all systems, D&D included.

The genre and level of magic doesn't even enter into it. This is purely a gamist consideration: It's not fun to use an ability (presumably purchased with scarce character resources) that you might never, depending on the vagaries of chance, actually be able to use.

But doesn't the above describe exactly how melee (or ranged) combat works? Not to mention spells that you can cast with no chance of failure but which can be resisted/saved against? I would posit that it's a cornerstone of D&D and nearly every other game system that I can think of that you are entitled to attempt something each round but you're not guaranteed any results. My view is that the chance of failure makes success all the sweeter.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
But doesn't the above describe exactly how melee (or ranged) combat works?

It's close. But there's differences:

#1: You're expected to hit with an attack roll (or a magic attack roll). Your bonus to hit is almost always going to outweigh an enemy's defenses.
#2: In 4e, now we've got things that trigger on a miss specifically because whiffing is dull. In earlier editions, spells had effects even on a successful save. Or you have the phenomena of 1st level mages with auto-hitting magic missiles outclassing fighters with greatswords.
#3: Because you are expected to hit, the powers are not vastly more powerful than any other attack at the same level (if it's "balanced," anyway). In a "low magic" kind of setting, magic with a failure chance tends to be capable of things that aren't possible without it, ramping up the effects power (though, of course, not necessarily).
#4: Psychology matters. It's a much different feeling if my enemy dodges my blow than if I just fail to attack in the first place. It's kind of a semantic difference, because the effect is the same, but a "failure chance" is a "you suck at life" mechanic, whereas rolling against a defense is a "your enemy is powerful!" mechanic.
#5: You can make many individual choices that affect the chance for an attack or a spell to hit. You control that chance, to a degree, and that control is dynamic, it your chance can change from moment to moment. This means that while you might fail, you can always manipulate odds to be in your favor.

I would posit that it's a cornerstone of D&D and nearly every other game system that I can think of that you are entitled to attempt something each round but you're not guaranteed any results. My view is that the chance of failure makes success all the sweeter.

But you are expected to get results. Sometimes you might not, and that's cause for cursing and dice-throwing, but most of the time, you will (even if you don't get quite as good results as you expected). This dogma extends beyond the individual attack roll, into encouners and adventures: the PC's might fail, but they'll probably succeed (even if they don't succeed quite how they expected to).

In my experience, success is only sweet if the chance of failure is very great -- if you succeed "against all odds," then you succeed based on your choices and your tactics and your skill, rather than luck. That makes success very sweet indeed, and if you wanted a magic casting mechanic to reflect that, a "failure chance" isn't really the best mechanic to use. It doesn't model tactics or skill at all -- just luck. Instead, perhaps something like an Iron Heroes "charging" mechanic could be in place, or some sort of cascading effect combo chain, or just a ritual mechanic if you don't intend for magic to be combat-viable. Whatever it is, it should be something that allows the player to make choices that can enable the "impossible!" to happen. A dice roll doesn't do that very well, because it's pure luck, and OF COUSE luck is stacked against you. And if this is one of your central character choices (you're spending resources on it), a 90% chance to do nothing for your turn means that 90% of the time, you're a useless sack of meat.

If the chance of failure is only average, or less-than-average (as is the case with attack rolls and saving throws), failure adds no real sweetness. You're failing while everyone around you keeps succeeding, you feel like you're the doofus of the night. If there is a 30% or 20% chance of failure and you get it, it's a negative thing -- you're the only useless sack of meat at the moment. But there's always the comeback -- you're pretty sure next time you'll hit, or the time after that. You only suck for a round, and then you're back into it, and sooner or later, EVERYONE sucks for a round here and there. Furthermore, the luck is slightly in your hands -- the next round, maybe you'll try a slightly different tactic, or attack a different target, or whatnot. If this is one of your central character choices, you're no worse off than anyone else in the party.

In my experience, low-magic-imposed failure chances on magical bang-zoom-pow tends to adopt a "rare yet potent" kind of dogma: you probably have less of a chance to light it off than the melee warrior does to whack the bad guy, but if you do, it's going to BLAST the bad guy.

It sounds fine, but it's the "save-or-die" problem. You fail, not enough happens. You succeed, too much happens. Either way, nobody wins.

An alternate low magic method might be something like a "high cost" kind of dogma: you can BLAST the bad guy, but if you do, you're somehow weaker for it. Perhaps it also takes a lot of character resources to learn to do it in the first place. You pay the cost, a lot happens. You don't pay the cost, you can still do other stuff. Either way, everyone wins.

D&D's higher magic method is a "special effects" kind of dogma: you can whack the bad guy with a magical twinkle dust, or you can whack him with your super battle-axe ninjutsu, but they're going to have effects that are on par with each other, and you can do both about the same number of times.

I totally understand that's not what a low-magic game wants, but that doesn't mean there needs to be a 40-60% chance of "you suck!" in order to evoke that low-magic style.
 

Asmor

First Post
GlassJaw said:
I have no interest in 4E and while I still enjoy 3.x, I'm starting to get a little burned out with all the variants available. So I'm thinking I might need to change systems for a bit.

I do have some "requirements" though:

- Savage Worlds

I'm not set against d20 one way or the other. I'm just looking for a system that meets the above requirements. Thanks!

Fixed that for ya.

Seriously, your list of requirements reads like an ad for Savage Worlds. Literally every one of the things you're looking for is part of the SW system.

Best part is that the book is only $10 and has everything needed for PCs and GMs. Amazon's got a 4-for-3 deal where certain books you can buy three and get the fourth free. I took advantage of that to buy 4 copies of Savage Worlds for $30.

I ran two campaigns with Savage Worlds. One was a standard fantasy campaign, the other was a futuristic military campaign where they fought the undead (the latter is an official setting, Necropolis).
 

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