Young and Adult dragons too powerful?

Vempyre · Jun 8, 2008

I was reading my MM tonight (well, all night) and after reading the first few dragons I was thinking this after thinking about how to use them in battles vs PCS.

All dragons have Fly (hover) ...

PCs don't really get any fly powers until mid paragon levels. And ranged attacks that make a target prone (that could bring down the dragon to ground level) are mostly rare at those levels.

Any dragon young or adult dragon worth it's salt will just fly (hover) above the PCs most of the time, decimating the archers/wizards/warlocks 1st with their reach 2 while ignoring the defenders or melee strikers altogether (defenders can't even mark the dragon since they can't reach/attack him and/or be adjacent to him).

Too powerful? I think the problem comes mostly from the hover ability.

AtomicPope · Jun 8, 2008

Vempyre said:
Too powerful? I think the problem comes mostly from the hover ability.

Actually the Young Black Dragon is a clumsy flyer. This is because it's a Lurker (+17 Paragon Stealth!)

The Dragons are solo creatures which means they're supposed to challenge the PC's as 5 creatures of that type and level would. White Dragons are Brutes - easy to hit, lots of HP, lots of bread-n-butter damage attacks. As solo's they have immediate reactions allowing them to fight out of turn. They also have action points.

If you're wondering how to build encounters then check out the DMG. Solos should be HIGHER level than the PC's if you want to challenge them (2 to 4 levels higher). So a 2nd level party could face a Young Black Dragon, which is exactly what I'm planning >=)

If the Solo is the same level as the Party and and you want it to be a difficult challenge then sprinkle some minions and add a dash of Skirmisher to run interference on the support characters.

All of this is in the DMG, so I'll stop here at the risk of redundancy.

Revinor · Jun 8, 2008

Vempyre said:
Any dragon young or adult dragon worth it's salt will just fly (hover) above the PCs most of the time, decimating the archers/wizards/warlocks 1st with their reach 2 while ignoring the defenders or melee strikers altogether (defenders can't even mark the dragon since they can't reach/attack him and/or be adjacent to him).

This is one of valid tactics. If you read blue dragon entry, they actually propose he stays even more out of reach and just kills PCs with alternating breath weapon and lightning bursts. In case of lightning bursts, he can use them from 20 squares distance, which is already beyond range of some distance powers.

This means he is going to be a pain for players even without hover.

Will immobilization cause the dragon for fall? If yes, there are some 3rd level powers which can come to help (assuming dragon gets into 10 square range...).

AtomicPope · Jun 8, 2008

Revinor said:
Will immobilization cause the dragon for fall? If yes, there are some 3rd level powers which can come to help (assuming dragon gets into 10 square range...).

There are 1st level At Will powers that can help. Just have the Wizard Ray of Frost. It affects flyers. Then have the 1st level Rogue use his Daily to Slide it 5 squares (forced movement is not affected). It's in your Fighter's threat range. Done.

But this is something PC's need to figure out on their own. If it were easy it wouldn't be a challenge.

P.S. There's also those pesky dice rolls

Sitara · Jun 8, 2008

Well first, even defenders/melee'rs have ranged attacks. For example, the Paladin's 1st level daily On Pain of Deat is very powerful, and has a range of 5. Ongoing 1d8 damage is nothing to sneeze at. Furthermore there is radiant delirium that dazes the target and softens him up by lowering AC.

The wizard and warlock ought to be able to throw ongoign damage effects; so it will take a while but the dragoin will come down eventually.

I epsonally am a HUGE fan of little pc flight avialability as well as greatly reduced invisibility, as I hate both these abilitites since they tend to ruin the gritty flavor of the games I run.

essenbee · Jun 8, 2008

Ironic seeing as other postings on the board insist that dragons suck!

ValhallaGH · Jun 8, 2008

Vempyre said:
while ignoring the defenders or melee strikers altogether (defenders can't even mark the dragon since they can't reach/attack him and/or be adjacent to him).

Don't forget about the Athletics skill and it's ability to let a character jump high enough to make attacks against a hovering dragon.

Sitara · Jun 8, 2008

Well, ancient level dragons are rather weak compared to their descriptions (which state that they can challenge even the gods) *roll eyes*

I am fine with it though, dragons should not be the be en of all.You have the tarrasque, balor and orcus for that.

Crothian · Jun 8, 2008

Sitara said:
Well, ancient level dragons are rather weak compared to their descriptions (which state that they can challenge even the gods) *roll eyes*

Maybe the gods aren't as powerful as you though

Sitara · Jun 8, 2008

Well, Orcus is supposed to be almost as powerful as any given deity (maybe even equal to the non-martial ones in terms of pure combat; probbaly only Bahamut, Tiamat Moridain, Vecna and the chained god could easily trump him.) and the most powerful ancient dragon (red) is 6 levels lower than him if I recall correctly.

So my point stands. I have to say though, dragon breath has been really nerfed in this edition, like all AoE's.

And I wonder when we will start seeing stas for the deities (since its been stated pc's will be able to slay them)

Young and Adult dragons too powerful?

Vempyre

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