D&D 5E Evaluating the warlord-y Fighter

koga305 said:

Maybe another Fighting Style might be in order?

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I think that'd be easy to get away with, and a nice cherry on top for those missing their level 1 abilities (and not a bad place to put some more robust healing effects).

Maybe the inverse of the Protection style: once per round, as a reaction, you can give an ally Advantage on an attack roll against a creature that you attacked last round (call it the "Aggression" style!).

Or same basic framework for those worried about HP: When an ally attacks a creature that you attacked last round, as a reaction, you can give them temporary HP equal to your Charisma bonus.

Kamikaze Midget said:

I think that'd be easy to get away with, and a nice cherry on top for those missing their level 1 abilities (and not a bad place to put some more robust healing effects).

Maybe the inverse of the Protection style: once per round, as a reaction, you can give an ally Advantage on an attack roll against a creature that you attacked last round (call it the "Aggression" style!).

Or same basic framework for those worried about HP: When an ally attacks a creature that you attacked last round, as a reaction, you can give them temporary HP equal to your Charisma bonus.

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The first isn't a bad idea, but it sort of supercedes the Distracting Strike maneuver - and maybe it should call out the Help action as that's essentially what you are doing. The second seems a little strange to have as an at-will ability and seems like it could lead to a lot of erasing and rewriting in the "Temp HP" box of character sheets. I really like the idea of making it Reaction-based, though - helping an ally off turn helps to capture the 4E Warlord feel.

Maybe a feat similar to Sentinel would be good? There's definitely precedent for at-will, combat style-defining abilities to be available for the cost of a feat. Just spitballing, but perhaps we could have something like this.

Tactical Leader
You are an expert at leading your allies to victory, directing their strikes against the most powerful enemies you face. You gain the following benefits:

• Friendly creatures within 30 feet of you who can see and hear you (including yourself) gain a +2 bonus to Initiative.
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to take the Help action to aid an ally in attacking your target.
• When you score a critical hit on a creature, you may choose one ally. That ally may immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack against the same creature.

One thing that'd be really easy to do would be to adopt the "marking" option in the DMG, and then give the battlemaster the ability, when he marks a target, to mark it for one of his allies other than himself. IOW, I hit the frost giant, and now the frost giant draws an AOO from my friend, Bob the paladin, rather than from me, if he attacks anyone other than Bob.

There'd have to be a range on it--you can't mark on behalf of someone from across the battlefield--but it'd be a nice little trick that should add a touch more warlord feel without unbalancing anything.

I really enjoy the 5e fighter too. The issue with warlords is we were told we were getting a warlord-like class as a fighter subclass but the system reduced action opportunities in general and doesn't default to a tactical grid, and it doesn't follow the 4e AEDU format so that removes a lot of what many players were used to.

I think the battle master performs excellently and captures the general philosophy, and it is our warlord-like option we were told to expect. Combination moves emulate higher level options somewhat and the use of which maneuver when is still a tactical choice. Adding the healer feat, inspiring leader, and martial adept increase dice and number of maneuvers plus some suitable additional abilities. Protection is thematic carrying ranged weapons (missile weapons or thrown) allows for using many at range.

It's not the 4e warlord but it works well enough in my experience.

TwoSix said:

If you can't play a Strength dumping princess lazylord, then it isn't really a 4e warlord at all.

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Being able to disarm and trip people with dual crossbows makes up for it.

Cybit said:

I think the problem with off-turn actions is that it slowed down combat immensely; that part I think was a conscious decision to remove.

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Now that you mention it, this was an explicit design goal for 5e, and the reason 80 percent of the wishes in this thread will never come true.

Kamikaze Midget said:

I think that'd be easy to get away with, and a nice cherry on top for those missing their level 1 abilities (and not a bad place to put some more robust healing effects).

Maybe the inverse of the Protection style: once per round, as a reaction, you can give an ally Advantage on an attack roll against a creature that you attacked last round (call it the "Aggression" style!).

Or same basic framework for those worried about HP: When an ally attacks a creature that you attacked last round, as a reaction, you can give them temporary HP equal to your Charisma bonus.

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I think these are good ideas as a starting point, but we can't forget to keep them relatively in balance with the other fighting styles. For example, granting advantage to an ally is the equivalent of giving a +5 attack bonus to anyone, while the closest existing style is a +2 attack bonus to yourself only.

One of the feelings I'm getting from reading this thread is that it seems people want a class just like the 4e warlord, and in the 5e context, that would be just way too powerful compared to all the others. "I want a battle master fighter who heals and buffs like a cleric." That seems to be wanting the benefits of two classes into only one.

koga305 said:

This is really valuable! Although it's not perfect in my eyes, I actually really like the design of the Battlemaster as written and I suspect it's better than people think it is. Has your friend chosen exclusively Warlord-y maneuvers, or is he focusing on being an effective combatant himself as well?

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His maneuvers are all very supportive in nature. Commander's Strike is his favorite by far, followed by Goading Strike. (He has taken every defensive option you can imagine.)

Sacrosanct said:

For example, granting advantage to an ally is the equivalent of giving a +5 attack bonus to anyone, while the closest existing style is a +2 attack bonus to yourself only.

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One of the distinctions is that Advantage only applies on one attack and costs the fighter their reaction, while the Archery style applies to every attack the fighter makes (*cough*Action Surge + Extra Attack). Compare the Protection style (+5 AC to anyone) with the Defense style (+1 AC to yourself), forex. But they certainly weren't meant to be finished ideas. Possibly we want to limit it to melee range or something.

Ashrym said:

The issue with warlords is we were told we were getting a warlord-like class as a fighter subclass but the system reduced action opportunities in general and doesn't default to a tactical grid, and it doesn't follow the 4e AEDU format so that removes a lot of what many players were used to.

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I think there's something to that. The dissatisfaction with the battle master is an example of what some people are dissatisfied with in general in moving from 4e to 5e, and one element of that is "fewer options" and "lower numbers." As much as the warlord highlighted 4e's battle grid and role design, the 5e battle master shows how 5e has moved away from many of those core elements of 4e. It's OK to use basic attacks and healing potions. 4d8 is a LOT of monster HP. Things like that take some time to get used to (I'm still in the process of adjusting my assumptions for my 5e game) and aren't things you're going to necessarily notice in a read of the PHB.

If I were to try to do a warlord in 5e, I'd probably do it like this. There are really what? Two versions of warlord? Inspiring and Tactical? I think the BM does a pretty good job covering the tactical part, so I'd create a new Inspiring Warlord subclass modeled similar to the battlemaster. Fewer maneuvers, but the PC knows them all.

Combat Leader
You and each ally within 50ft who can hear you gain a +1 initiative bonus.

Inspiring Leadership
Leadership Dice: You have four leadership dice, which are d8. You can use inspiring leadership dice on any Inspiring Action below. You know all of the Inspiring Actions. You regain leadership dice upon completion of a short or long rest.
You gain another leadership dice at 7th level, and another at 15th level. Upon reaching 10th level, these dice become d10s, and at 18th level, d12s.

Maneuver save DC = 8 + your prof bonus + CHA bonus

Battlefield Leadership
Starting at 7th level , you and any ally within 50ft gains a +1 bonus to any saving throw.

War Leader
Starting at 15th level, if you roll initiative and do not have any leadership dice remaining, you regain one leadership dice.

Inspiring Actions

Make the Save: Roll one leadership dice. You or any ally within 50ft can take a reaction when forced to make a saving throw. Add the result of the leadership dice to that save.

Back in the Fight: Roll any number of leadership dice remaining. As a bonus action, add the result of the die roll + your CHA bonus as temporary hit points to yourself or any ally within 50ft.

Lessening the Blow: Whenever an ally within 50ft who can hear you is attacked by an opponent, spend a leadership dice as a reaction. The damage the ally suffers will be reduced by the result of your die roll.

Taking Advantage: Whenever an ally within 50ft who can hear you makes an attack of opportunity, you may roll one leadership dice and that ally will add the result to his or her attack roll.

Battlefield Logistics: Roll any number of remaining leadership dice. As a bonus action, add the result to the movement rate of you or any ally within 50ft who can hear you until the start of your or their next turn.