D&D 5E Out of the Abyss - No Drizzt afterall?

Sacrosanct said:

No, unless the player specifically has that goal. Drizzt is built to be min/maxed, between double weapon spec and drow abilities; his core attributes are all about min/maxing. Not necessarily true with the others.

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So, now anyone who plays a ranger is min/maxing? After all, rangers have had two weapons standard as a class ability since 1988.

This is just going to have to be a difference in anecdotal experiences then. I have people who play barbarians, but you don't know if it's supposed to be a conan clone, Krull clone, or Fafhrd clone. Most aren't clones, but general similarities. Drizzt is pretty specific. But either way, your anecdotal experience and my anecdotal experience don't really matter. What is objectively true when D&D is considered, is that Drizzt appears much more frequently than any of those you mention. And not by a small amount. I'd say do a google search, but I don't want to scar your brain by the sheer amount of fanfic that's out there for Drizzt that isn't out there for Conan, Gandalf, or Merlin.

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So, Drizzt is an incredibly popular genre character that people love...

It's cool to hate on DRizzt! Wow, I never knew. I'm so glad I'm one of the cool kids now....

Or more likely, I'm tired of seeing him pop up everytime I turn around in D&D for the past 30 years. He's one of the worst Gary Stu's out there, and he's nearly unavoidable. One can't even escape him with current D&D products. In fact, WotC is doubling down on the DRizzt overload. Your statement makes no sense at all because there's literally 30 years of substance myself and others have been giving you as to reasons why we're sick and tired of him. Christ, he's been in over 30 novels, and that's not counting video games, magazines, or adventures. So either you're intentionally ignoring all of that, or you're being intellectually dishonest to make a jab at people who don't like him by saying there's no valid reason to be tired of him.

FWIW, I don't blame Salvatore at all. DRizzt was only supposed to be a sidekick to Wulfgar, but gamers fell in love with him (for reasons I mentioned earlier).

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Really? Everywhere in the past 30 years? I've got a stack of Forgotten Realms material dating back to 2e that would like to disagree with you.

According to wikipedia, all 31 Drizzt novels have hit the NYT best seller list. Every single one. Why on earth would WOTC NOT double down on that? Obviously there's some reason that he's popular. You don't get to write that many successful novels about a character unless you're doing something right.

But as far as table top material goes? He rarely features. What module has Drizzt as an NPC? How many modules? What sourcebook talks about Drizzt? How many sourcebooks, out of the hundreds for Forgotten Realms, feature him? Magazines? You mean, comic books featuring him? Other than that, what magazines?

How hard is it to just ignore it? He's not really part of the Realms RPG material to any large extent. Other than recently, you almost never heard of Drizzt connected to the game. There are what, a couple of hundred FR novels out there? So, maybe 10% feature Drizzt? Big fat hairy deal.

Hussar said:

So, now anyone who plays a ranger is min/maxing? After all, rangers have had two weapons standard as a class ability since 1988.

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I really don't think you're reading what I'm actually writing. No, I didn't say anyone who plays a ranger is min/maxing. I said Drizzt core abilities are. A combination of how he is set up as a ranger AND as a drow. I think you'd find less things to argue with if you would stop ignoring entire contexts, instead only picking and choosing which things to focus on that support your argument.

So, Drizzt is an incredibly popular genre character that people love...



Really? Everywhere in the past 30 years? I've got a stack of Forgotten Realms material dating back to 2e that would like to disagree with you.

According to wikipedia, all 31 Drizzt novels have hit the NYT best seller list. Every single one. Why on earth would WOTC NOT double down on that? Obviously there's some reason that he's popular. You don't get to write that many successful novels about a character unless you're doing something right.

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Once again, totally missing the point. In fact, you're actually supporting what I'm trying to say, rather than discounting it. How popular Drizzt is is not relevant to what I'm saying (his frequency is), but if you were to factor it in, only further supports my position that he's everywhere. The Jersey Shore was super popular too, but guess what? Getting sick and tired of that show is a perfectly acceptable "substance" just like getting sick and tired of Drizzt is. You said that anyone not liking him has no substance to base that off of, and only do it to be cool. You are very wrong. And you refuse to even acknowledge that lots of people don't like him for lots of perfectly valid reasons.

But as far as table top material goes? He rarely features. What module has Drizzt as an NPC? How many modules? What sourcebook talks about Drizzt? How many sourcebooks, out of the hundreds for Forgotten Realms, feature him? Magazines? You mean, comic books featuring him? Other than that, what magazines?

How hard is it to just ignore it? He's not really part of the Realms RPG material to any large extent. Other than recently, you almost never heard of Drizzt connected to the game. There are what, a couple of hundred FR novels out there? So, maybe 10% feature Drizzt? Big fat hairy deal.

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BFHD until you've got tons of players playing clones of him. Which is the point of this entire thread. Geez. You can say you never saw a clone of him, and frankly I don't care what your opinion is. I know what I've seen, and many other people have the same experience. Enough to know that it happened(s) a lot. And now WotC is putting him front and center right in your face again.

"Man, this trailer is awesome! What! What's that? DRizzt? SMH..."

So, just so I've got it clearly.

You think that WotC should shelve its most popular IP because a certain number of DM's, out of the dozens of players spread over the dozens of years of play, have seen a small percentage of players who want to play clones of that incredibly popular IP. Would that be accurate?

See, there's a difference between "I'm sick of seeing Drizz't" and "Drizz't sucks and anyone who likes Drizz't is an immature munchkin who only wants to powergame so Drizz't should never appear anywhere near anything I want to buy". The first one is an opinion and, well, I can't argue with that. The second one is an attempt to justify that opinion through typical geek elitism.

MoonSong(Kaiilurker) said:

Good, we all dodged a collective bullet

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No we did not. There never was any bullet.

cmad1977 said:

No we did not. There never was any bullet.

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But, but it .... runs away crying

Hussar said:

So, just so I've got it clearly.

You think that WotC should shelve its most popular IP because a certain number of DM's, out of the dozens of players spread over the dozens of years of play, have seen a small percentage of players who want to play clones of that incredibly popular IP. Would that be accurate?

See, there's a difference between "I'm sick of seeing Drizz't" and "Drizz't sucks and anyone who likes Drizz't is an immature munchkin who only wants to powergame so Drizz't should never appear anywhere near anything I want to buy". The first one is an opinion and, well, I can't argue with that. The second one is an attempt to justify that opinion through typical geek elitism.

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Incorrect again. That's not what I'm saying, nor what I took issue with. WotC can do whatever they want. But me personally? I'm sick of Drizzt, and I'm sick of all the clones. For the reasons I gave, and why I disagreed with your statement that the people who don't like him have no substance to their argument and just want to be cool. Because there are plenty of reasons to not like him, and none of them have to do with trying to be cool. Rather than actually admit that you were wrong in making that claim, all you've done is reply with strawmen arguments. Not sure how much clearer I can be here.

But some of you stat nerdz just KNOW you want official Drizzt stats from WotC and not what a homebrew DM can cook up so you can gawk.

Just like 3e stats of Elminster or Mordenkainen that were in the 3e Epic Level book or any version of Deities and Demigods.

Sacrosanct said:

Incorrect again. That's not what I'm saying, nor what I took issue with. WotC can do whatever they want. But me personally? I'm sick of Drizzt, and I'm sick of all the clones. For the reasons I gave, and why I disagreed with your statement that the people who don't like him have no substance to their argument and just want to be cool. Because there are plenty of reasons to not like him, and none of them have to do with trying to be cool. Rather than actually admit that you were wrong in making that claim, all you've done is reply with strawmen arguments. Not sure how much clearer I can be here.

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But, again, what is there to be sick of? What TTRPG products feature Drizz't? Other than a couple of examples in the core books, Drizz't does not appear anywhere in 5e in the tabletop game. AFAIK, he didn't appear in 4e or 3e either. So, again, what is there to be sick of? The last TTRPG product to feature Drizz't is at least twenty years ago.

Granted, he's splashed all over the Rage of Demons stuff, but, that makes sense. Rage of Demons features two novels and a video game. Fair enough. But, unless you read the novels or play that game, who cares?

You specifically stated:

Sacrosanct said:

If you find it baffling, it's because that's not what people are doing, or are arguing against. It has nothing to do with genre. I said it earlier and it bears repeating apparently. People don't like the Drizzt clone because it's way overdone (way more than any other literary character), in combination of a min/maxed build, which also irks a lot of people. Drizzt has turned into the face of D&D FR, and is pushed everywhere. Just look at the most recent ad trailer for OotA. For someone who can be omitted in the actual adventure, he sure has a lot of screen time.

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What screen time? That's what I keep asking. You keep saying that he's "everywhere". But, as far as the game goes, he doesn't actually appear anywhere. Sure, he's popular in the novels, fair enough. Do you read D&D novels? I don't. It certainly doesn't apply to the game. So, how is he being "pushed everywhere"? Three FR modules for 5e now, and not a single appearance. He's not even mentioned by name in a module set in the Underdark. How small do you think the footprint should be? Note, your ad trailer for OoTA isn't actually for OoTA, it's for Rage of Demons. They're selling a couple of Drizz't novels, so, it's not unreasonable to use him in the ad.

Tell you what. Show me three OoTA previews or advertisements that feature Drizz't. Not Rage of Demons, but, stuff specifically for OotA. I've seen busts of demons, I've seen all sorts of art and whatnot. But, what I haven't seen is any mention of Drizz't.

So, yeah, it looks like you're bitching about nothing and trying to pretend that it's this great big thing when there is actually no substance to your complaints.

Hussar said:

But, again, what is there to be sick of? What TTRPG products feature Drizz't? Other than a couple of examples in the core books, Drizz't does not appear anywhere in 5e in the tabletop game. AFAIK, he didn't appear in 4e or 3e either.

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's bugging me, so...

Drizzt has stats in the 3e FRCS. (Which seems entirely sensible, given the subject matter.) Apparently, his 2nd Ed stats appear in the FR "Heroes Lorebook", but I don't have that one. And I'm sure he's mentioned in the 2nd Ed "Drow of the Underdark", and would be surprised if he wasn't at least mentioned in the 4e version of the same.

None of which seems remotely unreasonable to me - the topic of all those books would suggest that he's relevant, and indeed it would be odd if he was excluded. But I guess YMMV.

(I'm actually more bothered by the nature of the stats he, and other iconic characters, are given. But that's a pet peeve of mine - I'm very much of the opinion that the iconic examples of characters for the game should not be given hugely inflated out-of-reach stats. PCs should be able to aspire to match those guys, not be told they are forever out of reach and untouchable. But, as I said, that's a pet peeve. )

I saw the title of the thread, and the FR version of the classic Disney song just popped into my head. " There's no Drizzt after all......."